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The largest unknown Bitcoin wallet moved nearly $1B for $0.48 in fees

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Re: The largest unknown Bitcoin wallet moved nearly $1B for $0.48 in fees

#211

Post by londons_explore »

RL_Quine wrote: post #158
Drip33 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The fun bit is that the signer can backdoor transactions, and that part isn't something that can be verified by anybody who doesn't have the private keys. Can you explain this? This is contrary to my knowledge of reviewing the details of a pre-signed transaction.

Sure. The basic idea is that signer can choose a ECDSA nonce (k) that they know, and leak the private key. If I choose a known nonce for my signature, I can recover the private key from the published transaction instantly. With some ECDSA magic, you can even produce a nonce that is only recoverable with another key that you hold. So a hardware wallet for example can backdoor transactions to leak the seed through the…

If you never reuse an address, all of this concern goes away. Spending any funds from an address means spending them all, and then any private key leaked no longer matters.

Re: The largest unknown Bitcoin wallet moved nearly $1B for $0.48 in fees

#212

Post by sukilot »

andrewzah wrote: post #147
gonehome wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The most interesting bitcoin story I read somewhere was about a Ukrainian living in the Russian controlled portion of the country getting out with his wealth intact. The border was controlled by corrupt Russian guards that would steal things of value. You could pass the border occasionally to visit family on the other side, but it was risky to take anything. He put all his wealth into bitcoin, memorized his wallet se…

That's one use for btc that I hadn't thought of. Neat! However one still has to be careful to somehow fund a cold wallet without linking your ID via the transactions. I.e. to use an exchange like binance or coinbase, I have to link my US ID. So if a government actor were after me, they could easily find out about my cold wallet by viewing my transactions, no?. I guess I could -not- divulge the seed words, but that's…

Government/warlord-avoiding money transfer like this is the core use case for Bitcoin outside of speculating on its future value. It's not for casual shopping transactions.

Re: The largest unknown Bitcoin wallet moved nearly $1B for $0.48 in fees

#213

Post by Jommi »

jpkoning wrote: post #203
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you trying to argue that a financial transaction - a service provided by a bank where THEY take all the risk and responsibility of said transfer - should be free of charge? I think that they are making the point that they actually are free of charge. Fees for moving money at banks are negligible. They might not actually be entirely free, but wire transfer fees are ~$20, and I've moved a million dollars this way…

>I think that they are making the point that they actually are free of charge. That's right. An "on-us" transaction, one that simply requires RBC to update its database by debiting funds from RBC customer A and crediting them to RBC customer B, is free. (If your bank is charging you for that, switch banks!). A wire transfer is more complex than an "on-us" transfer because it involves two bank database. RBC has to deb…

It only involves fees in less developed banking systems like the US. European banks transfer large amounts of euros to other banks with no fees.

Re: The largest unknown Bitcoin wallet moved nearly $1B for $0.48 in fees

#214

Post by vmception »

londons_explore wrote: post #199
vmception wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are, there is also a parallel global economy that allows for obtaining goods, services and investing in private equity or other assets directly using bitcoin, so those conversion fees are not an issue for the bitcoin owner. To counter the easiest rebuttal, there probably are only about $1bn worth of things to buy using bitcoin any given day, most of which are other new digital assets that would not be a great i…

Even a $1M order has more than 1-2% slippage in my experience... $1B will probably have much more.

Negotiate harder, and in USD.

Typically I will begin placing an order with two OTC desks at the same time, while also looking at exchange order books. I game the brokers against each other.

If it is a smaller order (5 - 6 figures) I will compare Coinbase Pro's fees with whatever my OTC desk is telling me. OTC has to be less than Coinbase Pro.

So thats how I pretty much guarantee a less than 1% fee.

$1bn = multiple OTC desks and multiple orders. The bitcoin market is much deeper than people think and gets deeper every day.

Re: The largest unknown Bitcoin wallet moved nearly $1B for $0.48 in fees

#215

Post by pbhjpbhj »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #27
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I didn't know transaction value was known to transaction block-miners; that seems like a flaw. Assuming there's a bidding system, wouldn't transaction cost tend to zero? (Seems I need to review bitcoin transaction mining. Suggestions for a good resource on that?)

> Oh, I didn't know transaction value was known to transaction block-miners; that seems like a flaw. Transaction value is known to everyone, which is one of the whole primary points of Bitcoin.

Yes, I knew that the transaction value (and source, sink) was known after processing it and putting it in the blockchain, just not that it was known by the miner processing the transaction before putting it on the blockchain - I assumed when "mining" a transaction that somehow the details would be hidden.

Them being visible seems to raise interesting attacks, such as an individual being doxed and then unable to have their transaction verified/accepted.

A sibling comment suggests Monero have addressed this.

Edit: If 51% agree not to process any transactions for accounts holding >$1M worth of Btc can they steal financial value? Like a stock buyback but you pay zero to the holder and get the stock anyway.

Re: The largest unknown Bitcoin wallet moved nearly $1B for $0.48 in fees

#217

Post by zMiller »

jpkoning wrote: post #16

If we both join the bitcoin network, we can exchange $1B for $0.48. If we both join set up accounts at a regular bank like RBC, we can exchange $1B for free. The point I'm making is that fees are not bitcoin's strong point. Any financial network can undercut it. What is unique about bitcoin is that not everyone can get an account at RBC, but anyone can join the more expensive bitcoin network.

You will never be able to exchange 1 billion dollars at will with RBC or any other bank.

Re: The largest unknown Bitcoin wallet moved nearly $1B for $0.48 in fees

#218

Post by sukilot »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #97
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trying to argue that a financial transaction - a service provided by a bank where THEY take all the risk and responsibility of said transfer - should be free of charge? I mean if I transferred a billion and my bank made a mistake, I would not lose any money. Make a typo in your bitcoin transaction, and you're screwed.

> Are you trying to argue that a financial transaction - a service provided by a bank where THEY take all the risk and responsibility of said transfer - should be free of charge? I think that they are making the point that they actually are free of charge. Fees for moving money at banks are negligible. They might not actually be entirely free, but wire transfer fees are ~$20, and I've moved a million dollars this way…

Bank transfers are free because you have to deposit (aka lend) money to the bank before transferring it. And the bank get to use that money for profit while it is deposited.

There's a billion dollars difference between a million and a billion. You can't just plop a billion dollars into your checking account. It's part of a hugely complex context (how would you even accumulate a billion dollars to deposit?)

Re: The largest unknown Bitcoin wallet moved nearly $1B for $0.48 in fees

#219

Post by ska »

beaner wrote: post #182
thekuanysh wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you have to add “Chinese”?

Who cares? It could be anything. Random descriptions add flavor. Bitcoin is also popular in China anyway.

> Random descriptions add flavor.

That's not flavor.

Re: The largest unknown Bitcoin wallet moved nearly $1B for $0.48 in fees

#220

Post by rdbell »

vmception wrote: post #214
londons_explore wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even a $1M order has more than 1-2% slippage in my experience... $1B will probably have much more.

Negotiate harder, and in USD. Typically I will begin placing an order with two OTC desks at the same time, while also looking at exchange order books. I game the brokers against each other. If it is a smaller order (5 - 6 figures) I will compare Coinbase Pro's fees with whatever my OTC desk is telling me. OTC has to be less than Coinbase Pro. So thats how I pretty much guarantee a less than 1% fee. $1bn = multiple OT…

Thanks for the firsthand insight!
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