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Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#211

Post by oa335 »

komali2 wrote: post #138
oa335 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your comment. I'm not blakc, but I agree that reading some of these comments is quite depressing and proves that we have a long way to go on race issues in tech.

I'm frustrated that my comments promoting allyship are being downvoted to oblivion elsewhere in the thread. How can people be reading these experiences and not grasp the truth of this reality? I have people claiming that POC is a non-existent concept. It's madness.

It's a manifestation of cognitive dissonance. High intelligence leads to the ability to rationalize almost anything. Ideas posited in this thread threaten some people's conception of themselves and the world ("I am not racist, I treat everyone fairly, the world is a just place"). When people's identity and worldview is threatened, they try to annihilate that threat (usually not violently, but that occurs also e.g. violence against trans people). That's what is happening in the comments here - arguments about semantics without addressing the whole point of the testimony.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#212

Post by josephcsible »

082349872349872 wrote: post #48
cowboysauce wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the United States, there were periods of time where Irish and Italian people were discriminated against. Yet today, the idea that an Irish people is part of the out-group and wouldn't fit in a workplace is completely out-dated. The Rwandan genocide was Hutus killing Tutsis, yet the distinction between the two was very arbitrary and in a lot of cases boiled down to "the Belgians liked your ancestors more so declare…

Emacs or vi? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilliput_and_Blefuscu > The novel further describes an intra-Lilliputian quarrel over the practice of breaking eggs. Traditionally, Lilliputians broke boiled eggs on the larger end; a few generations ago, an Emperor of Lilliput, the Present Emperor's great-grandfather, had decreed that all eggs be broken on the smaller end after his son cut himself breaking the egg on the la…

TIL that's where the word for byte ordering came from.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#213

Post by komali2 »

bJGVygG7MQVF8c wrote: post #207
komali2 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allyship for POC doesn't imply bias against white people. Acknowledging and fighting against systemic racism doesn't imply that all white people should feel universal guilt for their very real privilege. Raising others up doesn't require pushing anyone down. Well, anyone that isn't in a white hood, anyway.

> Allyship for POC doesn't imply bias against white people. Sure, in theory. In practice, bias against whites exists, some of it catalyzed by woke ideology. (By woke logic) White-presenting people are really the only ones with standing to speak to such bias in their own lives. > Well, anyone that isn't in a white hood, anyway. Ah yes, the IRL downvote: call someone a racist / Nazi / fascist / Klansman.

Where did I call anyone a klansman? I'm saying you can bring up the oppressed minority populations without putting anyone else down, with the explicit exception of people who are punished by society for their hateful ideology.

> bias against whites exists

Not in any meaningful way, especially when compared to the experience of POC in America.

> some of it catalyzed by woke ideology.

Sometimes racists lose their jobs. That's not racism against white people.

> White-presenting people are really the only ones with standing to speak to such bias in their own lives.

I'm white. We don't experience meaningful bias. Trying to claim so is just attempting to appropriate victimhood from actual victims, and detracts from anti-racist movements.

Another paragraph before someone angrily hits reply and says "BUT WHITE PEOPLE IN TRAILER PARKS! BUT AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!" I said meaningful bias. I've experienced racial discomfort. Doesn't change the fact that no matter what angle you take, my life would've been harder if I'd been born black.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#214

Post by komali2 »

istjohn wrote: post #200
numpad0 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BLM has been creeping towards Asia where I am, and some of those activists are absurdly trying to redefine some Asian views of aesthetics as White admirations that the noble White must responsibly educate to eliminate. To me these ungrounded imaginations are clearly stemming from the idea that some people are objectively not colored and others are colored. I’ve never come across this “POC” term but if it’s not racist…

You're right to point out the absurdity of dividing the universe of people into two groups: white and non-white or white and "POC." But humans have evolved to be suspicious of those who aren't in their tribe, who are different. We are naturally xenophobic. We reflexively divide the world into "Them" and "Us." There are cultural cleavages like sexual orientation and religion that divide us, but in the US, skin color c…

I admire your way of engaging on this topic - it's much more civil and (imo) convincing than my way!

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#215

Post by vatueil »

mkl wrote: post #181
ibudiallo wrote: post #107

Hey everyone, author here. It seems like this post have been flagged, but I'd like to add a little comment here so it may clarify things. First, a little over a week ago we were having a similar discussion here [1] and I promised I'd post my article about it. This is the article. Second, I want people to understand that this is a complex issue and the solution might/should be as complex. It's not a case of, OK let's…

I don't think it was flagged, except maybe as a dupe. I ran into it on the BBC site the other day and tried to post it, but someone else already had (it didn't make the front page): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23659251

Currently flagged again: https://web.archive.org/web/20200629012939/https://news.ycom...

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#216

Post by memling »

komali2 wrote: post #202
memling wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Denying the existence of POC and their oppressed status in America is more than just "not supporting BLM," it's a denial of the foundation of their reason for existing. Acknowledging the personhood of people of color is not synonymous with supporting BLM. One might broadly support the ends of BLM while being uncomfortable with the means.

> One might broadly support the ends of BLM while being uncomfortable with the means. I sense a conflation of the statement "Black Lives Matter" with the movement "Black Lives Matter" with a third, completely unrelated concept, that being lootings and property destruction. Are you insinuating that the people who want the world to know that black lives matter are the same that are looting target? Despite extensive arr…

> The only unifying thing behind people who say "Black Lives Matter" is the belief that Black Lives Matter.

Okay, I'll stipulate for sake of argument.

As the apostle famously said, faith without works is dead. If one believes that black lives matter, then one works to that end. Yet what should one do? Is there (to abuse the analogy) a set of ten commandments to follow? If there is no organization, then isn't one free to pursue justice for people of color as she sees fit?

It is easily seen that two people may assert "Black Lives Matter" and work towards conflicting ends.

One might, for example, work to prohibit abortion, seeing it as means by which the state sanctions genocide by murdering people of color (who have higher per-capita abortion rates than whites).

Someone else could advocate for unrestricted free-as-in-beer abortion, believing that economic inequality among women of color is driven in no small part by the disproportionate burdens placed on them by childbearing and the destruction of the nuclear family, to say nothing of reproductive rights of women.

I suppose having no organization allows for a big tent--a sort of catholicity, if you will--to unite such disparate groups of people, but it seems ineffective to me. After all, a house divided against itself cannot stand, as someone else famously said.

One way to help solve that problem is to have clearly stated policy goals (e.g., end qualified immunity) with targets to meet (e.g., here is a political contest we have a chance of swaying to get another vote against qualified immunity). A suitable organization can put people in touch (e.g. lawyers, grassroots campaigners, et c.) to get things moving. Maybe it's already been done, but in general this seems to be missing from blacklivesmatter.com.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#217

Post by SuoDuanDao »

lilactown wrote: post #162
cal5k wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You may not be aware but this is a common alt-right strawman argument opposed to Black Lives Matter. Just argue the point. This kind of insidious smear-by-association is what I despise so much about the current state of public discourse.

I also despise the current state of public discourse for the very reason that stating that at the beginning of their post is necessary. It's impossible for us to know if the poster of the original point is posting in good faith or not (such is the nature of the internet). By noting that it is a common alt-right strawman, and engaging with it anyway, it can help readers understand the meta of discourse that leads many…

I really didn't mean for my feelings to be germane in the point I raised. The point I was trying to make - which I feel is being deliberately ignored - is that seeing my fellow humans as 'negros' weakens the project of making a 'human' tribe which doesn't care about race.

I'm not surprised the alt-right raises the same point, but I'd guess it's only raised to point out the hypocrisy. The alt-right is perfectly fine with the 'human' tribe fracturing along racial lines. So, as far as I can tell, is the radical left, the only disagreement I see between the two is how the racial tribes should settle their differences.

So I don't see how it should matter that alt-right people, who are perfectly happy to see more racial division, would make the same criticism I would. Either you have a ready answer or you don't. Suppose 51% of people who make the same argument as me hide a desire for more racial division behind accusations that insisting on 'racial awareness' deepens racial divisions. What does it matter whether I'm one of the 49% who are making that argument in good faith? Do you want more racial division or do you want more human unity? And if you want more human unity, how could my keeping your race constantly in mind do anything but delay your getting what you want?

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#218

Post by komali2 »

memling wrote: post #216
komali2 wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One might broadly support the ends of BLM while being uncomfortable with the means. I sense a conflation of the statement "Black Lives Matter" with the movement "Black Lives Matter" with a third, completely unrelated concept, that being lootings and property destruction. Are you insinuating that the people who want the world to know that black lives matter are the same that are looting target? Despite extensive arr…

> The only unifying thing behind people who say "Black Lives Matter" is the belief that Black Lives Matter. Okay, I'll stipulate for sake of argument. As the apostle famously said, faith without works is dead. If one believes that black lives matter, then one works to that end. Yet what should one do ? Is there (to abuse the analogy) a set of ten commandments to follow? If there is no organization, then isn't one fre…

I don't disagree with what you're saying regarding cross purposes, however there's a viewpoint missing: that of the person who doesn't believe black lives matter, either on purpose or on accident.

Liberals eating eachother alive and liberal movements being terribly disorganized is certainly an issue, but what I'm arguing against on here is people denying that BLM has ground to stand on. blacklivesmatter.com not having been updated in like, 3 years, is separate from that issue.

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#219

Post by komali2 »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #217
lilactown wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also despise the current state of public discourse for the very reason that stating that at the beginning of their post is necessary. It's impossible for us to know if the poster of the original point is posting in good faith or not (such is the nature of the internet). By noting that it is a common alt-right strawman, and engaging with it anyway, it can help readers understand the meta of discourse that leads many…

I really didn't mean for my feelings to be germane in the point I raised. The point I was trying to make - which I feel is being deliberately ignored - is that seeing my fellow humans as 'negros' weakens the project of making a 'human' tribe which doesn't care about race. I'm not surprised the alt-right raises the same point, but I'd guess it's only raised to point out the hypocrisy. The alt-right is perfectly fine w…

> Do you want more racial division or do you want more human unity? And if you want more human unity, how could my keeping your race constantly in mind do anything but delay your getting what you want?

Why not both? Human unity doesn't have to mean homogeneity.

The ask isn't to "keep race constantly in mind" but rather "keep the mind actively hunting for its own unconscious biases."

Re: Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired'

#220

Post by staticautomatic »

komali2 wrote: post #155
numpad0 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can’t stop thinking that ideas like GP is explaining is just a modernized racial segregation

This alt-right trope that diversity and inclusion is modern racial segregation should have been DOA but I keep seeing it crop up even here. Frustrating. The ask is to become aware of and fight against your own unconscious biases, nothing more.

I think part of the philosophical disagreement here is whether fighting against one’s bias is a necessary precursor to treating people equally. As a practical matter I think that’s probably true for most people, but I’m not sure it’s universally true either in theory or in practice. I respect this line of thinking but it also assumes or implies that anyone who just treats people equally because it’s the right thing to do has either necessarily failed to confront their biases or done so without knowing it. I don’t know if that’s true or not but I doubt we’ll ever find out because it doesn’t appear to be a falsifiable assertion.
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