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Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

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Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#211

Post by nine_zeros »

ActsJuvenile wrote: post #93
automated_toast wrote: post #8

I for one am ecstatic about this. I want less competition for my role, not more. It is hard to compete when the top 5% of every other economy comes in and crowds me out.

Doctors vs Software Engineers are very interesting case studies in my eyes. AMA (American Medical Association) has successfully lobbied congress to cap residencies at 100K a year, essentially restricting supply. Foreign doctors have to go through a gauntlet of exams, tests, and licenses that keeps market from being flooded with cheaper talent and diluting local doctor salaries. Software Engineers have failed to unite…

> Doctors vs Software Engineers are very interesting case studies in my eyes.

Actually, this is a great example. By restricting medical professionals, medical wages went high. Great for them!

But for the rest of America, this SUCKS. Medical expenses are through the roof, care cannot be had without selling all your money and often, specialist shortages mean appointments can be had only 3 months later. The lack of liquidity of healthcare professionals has made American healthcare the WORST in the developed world.

And this is in cities. Healthcare in rural America is pathetic.

Thanks for bringing to the fore how America has forever destroyed lives for the rest by trying to advantage the few.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#212

Post by chabons »

automated_toast wrote: post #165
adrr wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the h1b salary data is public. If you search any of the Faang companies, the salaries seem in line with market rates. I would also love to see a study that shows otherwise.

Is the salary public or also the stock options?

I don't think the stock options would be public, since it's discretionary at most companies, and varies from person to person. Anecdotal as it is, from my experience at Microsoft the stock sign-on and annual bonus don't correlate with visa status.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#213

Post by BenoitEssiambre »

I hope this helps dissolve the network effects that gives an unfair advantage to the US and keeps the largest tech hubs there. We rest-of-the-worlders would like to partake also.

What say you Musk? You already have Canadian citizenship, with the ice caps melting, it's not even that cold up here anymore.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#214

Post by throwawaygh »

foota wrote: post #124
throwawaygh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really, we should just enforce the original intent of the H1B. 1. Companies that import labor when they had a perfectly acceptable local candidate should face severe fines, and Justice should be given a real budget for running these investigations as a matter of course. And the burden of proof to demonstrate you needed to import labor should be pretty high. If you don't do this, then H1B abuse will happen. 2. Compani…

Personally, I don't think it matters much. So what if we allow more software engineers from other countries? We haven't done anything special to deserve a job more than they have. My only concerns with it are about their well-being and freedom under the current system.

I agree with you, actually. But we have to be honest about the intent of the H1B program if we want to fix it.

TBH I would support throwing away H1B entirely and creating a much more permissive midskill/lowskill immigration visa whose intent is more in-line with the actual use of the H1B. But if you try to get there by reforming H1B, it's never going to work well. So, if we keep H1B, we need to start using it as intended. And then fight for another visa class. I'm just fundamentally skeptical that the H1B will ever not be abusive until we align the original intent and practice of the policy.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#215

Post by fernandotakai »

guyzero wrote: post #127
automated_toast wrote: post #8

I for one am ecstatic about this. I want less competition for my role, not more. It is hard to compete when the top 5% of every other economy comes in and crowds me out.

Unbelievable how naked the anti-immigrant sentiment from you and numerous other commenters. I'm honestly shocked.

hn is particularly anti-immigration when it comes to h1b/immigrants "taking" tech jobs.

also a lot veiled xenophobia re: developers from poorer countries which is absolutely disgusting (and it's something that hits me particularly).

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#216

Post by manuelabeledo »

Supermancho wrote: post #11
andrenotgiant wrote: post #3

My news and social media feeds are almost universally negative about this. Who is happy about H1B Visa suspension? Who was advocating for it?

Everyone I know, including me? There is _no_ shortage of workers for virtually any industry. There is a shortage of people willing to work for submarket rates.

Excluding outsourcing companies, such as Tata, there is no proof that H1-B holders are paid less than the prevailing wage. The Trump administration has not targeted such companies, thus proving that this is a political move made to appeal their voter base.

Also, they are not banning H2-A seasonal worker visas, i.e. temporary farm workers, furthering in the fact that this administration does not care about unemployment, given that most jobs lost because COVID-19 are blue collar and lower wage service jobs.

In short, this is a move that appeals to the "America first" supporters, but has little productive value.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#217

Post by 29athrowaway »

georgeburdell wrote: post #163
gbronner wrote: post #5

H1B is terrible for the employees, and for those who work alongside them. Companies try to slow down green cards, and use H1Bs as virtual indentured servants. They also fake looking for Americans- in practice, many of the jobs are earmarked for a specific person, and you are wasting your time applying for it. Losing your job as an h1b requires you to leave almost immediately, which isn't great for anyone. Hopefully t…

When I was a new grad, I interviewed at Qualcomm for an embedded software job. I studied hardware, and was very up-front with the hiring manager in the phone screen, and he responded “not to worry about it”. I was flown out to do an on-site interview, and the first thing that struck me, sitting in the lobby for 20 minutes while my first interviewer arrived, was that 100% of the employees who walked through the front…

I have met many ethnically Indian people that are American born. Perhaps many of the people you saw were American citizens as well.

I have noticed that people of Indian heritage are encouraged to get a master's degree. Most of the Indians I've met have one.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#218

Post by arunkd13 »

gbronner wrote: post #5

H1B is terrible for the employees, and for those who work alongside them. Companies try to slow down green cards, and use H1Bs as virtual indentured servants. They also fake looking for Americans- in practice, many of the jobs are earmarked for a specific person, and you are wasting your time applying for it. Losing your job as an h1b requires you to leave almost immediately, which isn't great for anyone. Hopefully t…

I think the point of H1B being tied to an employer is that a H1B entry needs to be temporary and not long term immigration. If you don't like your employer, or your employer is shafting you, then return back to your country and look for another job. If it happens to be another job in US with H1B visa, good for you. Start another temporary stint.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#219

Post by tartoran »

6DM wrote: post #178
christiansakai wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you don't perform well on interviews then why expect we hand the job to you? These Indians, Chinese, Russians, Brazilian developers are more willing to grind Leetcode and study until insanity (solving 300 Leetcode problems is not uncommon) and will kill majority of interviews out there. They came here to study hard, from 3rd world countries, and they did it. Study hard, work hard, be smart, and we welcome you…

Let's be honest, after passing through ridiculous interview questions and being hired I am frequently disappointed at what's on the other side. I have nothing against foreigners and wish them the best. H1B's are routinely abused and this in turn creates a toxic environment. This only makes the code quality worse as devs rush, creating even more technical debt as they go. Maybe they killed themselves to get here, but…

Unfortunately, on average they are seen as cheap replaceable work with no resort to taking abuse. However, amongst them there are quite a few very talented developers. If the system worked properly they would be able to select them better. I work with quite a few H1Bs and the experience has been quite pleasing. However, I can see the abuse they take, the unpaid overtime they put in, because they can’t say no. That may spoil our market and we would soon need to fall in line with them.

Re: Andrew Ng: The suspension of H1B is bad for the US and bad for innovation

#220

Post by fredfoobar »

gbronner wrote: post #5

H1B is terrible for the employees, and for those who work alongside them. Companies try to slow down green cards, and use H1Bs as virtual indentured servants. They also fake looking for Americans- in practice, many of the jobs are earmarked for a specific person, and you are wasting your time applying for it. Losing your job as an h1b requires you to leave almost immediately, which isn't great for anyone. Hopefully t…

> They also fake looking for Americans- in practice, many of the jobs are earmarked for a specific person, and you are wasting your time applying for it.

Disagree with this, agree with the rest.

I've hired (and fired) folks for teams and this is not true at all. The wages in SV are very competitive. At one point we were desperate to get ANYONE who could pass the interview, including dropping the bar for the interview. H1B employees are technically more expensive for us, because the overhead for H1B fees/lawyers etc.

edit: I forgot to mention that H1Bs routinely negotiate their pay to be higher, since they get multiple offers as well.

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