Live data from Hacker News

MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations

news.mit.edu

211–220 of 269 posts

Re: MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations

#211
post #167
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's various kinds of "unnecessary work" jobs. Some do really contribute directly to the common welfare: artisans and producers of culture; providers of small conveniences, etc. There's also a whole lot of administrative, artificial, make-busy-work jobs, where we build complicated systems of bureaucracy to prevent losses that cost orders of magnitude more than the losses they prevent, and that in turn impose layer…

To be fair, nobody knows which parts of a complex bureaucracy are useless and which are important. There is a pretty decent chance that the truly useless parts of an organisation are linked in to complying with regulations. Most of the parts of the bureaucracy that I think are useless are the parts that are non-negotiable from a legal perspective.

> Most of the parts of the bureaucracy that I think are useless are the parts that are non-negotiable from a legal perspective.

When we look at e.g. higher education, for a place that's particularly guilty of this:

Administrative costs have grown to be approximately equal to instructional costs at universities, from about a quarter of expenditures in 1980.

In essence, our desire to prevent waste and to ensure that money is spent the way we'd like has created an ever-ballooning set of administrative work. It might be better to tolerate a somewhat greater share of instructional and research expenditures being wasted or spent in non-ideal ways.

Any time there's a small bit of waste or money spent in ways we don't approve of, the impulse is to create rules and administrative procedures to prevent it from happening again. But this effectively creates a perpetual overhead for what may have been a one-time, very minor problem.

Re: MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When we published in a paywalled journal, we had the option of paying an APC [0] to make the particular article open access. So in that sense, we were not 'required' to relinquish copyright. It was just costly to retain it. It's worth noting that some (maybe even many) journal open access options do not allow the authors to keep copyright, even if they pay money! Open access ≠ keeping copyright.

good point. I just double-checked and ours says: > Copyright: © Cambridge University Press 2018 > This is an Open Access article, distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution licence ( http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/ ), which permits unrestricted re-use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original work is properly cited. So I guess Cambridge is the copyright hold…

I don't think that was an "or" clause, I think it was an "and". The author will retain the copyright, and they will have generous re-use rights (i.e. they will not agree to a restrictive exclusive license).

Re: MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations

#214
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are perfectly capable of managing a set of self-contradictory rules This is caused by managers' and middle-managers' performance metrics being tied to the wrong outcomes. The top layer of management's target is the desired outcome. The bottom layer's (the worker) target is also clear, it's to do whatever their manager says to do. In the middle is where it often breaks down; their objectives are short-sighted a…

> At best, it introduces a large inefficiency, waste of resources and unnecessary busywork ("bullshit jobs" becomes relevant here) If the COVID-19 lockdown has taught us anything, it's that probably a full third of our economy is bullshit jobs. We're at best self-perpetuating economic 'nice-to-haves', at worst parasitic rent seekers, probably somewhere in between, whose real role is simply to distribute GDP more wide…

I think it's a little unfair - you will always have jobs that are important in the immediate, short, medium, long terms. Society can function perfectly fine without teachers, engineers, scientists... For a bit. Some teams can function fine with reduced manning, but long term need full or more manning, for training, taking care of admin, ensuring sanity, and doing more than the bare minimum.

Not that I disagree that some jobs are for expensive seat warmers to ensure warm fuzzies

Re: MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally a tangent, but: the law of the excluded middle ("tertium non datur") doesn't state that "a and not a" is always invalid, it states that "a or not a" is always valid. This is a somewhat important distinction since there are logic systems (intuitionism) where "a or not a" is not a tautology, yet I don't know of any logic that accepts "a and not a".

I'm confused. Or maybe you're confusing AND with OR? How can "A and not A" ever be true, let alone tautologically so? Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction

Quantum states can be A and not A.

Unknown questions are A and not A.

There’s interesting alternative logic systems that try to tackle this.

We get into interesting territory when using English and then “is” as a statement. Most English is assumed to have a certain value because of to be.

English is almost inherently flawed with logic bugs and assumptions.

E-Prime may help with this.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catu%E1%B9%A3ko%E1%B9%ADi

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaina_seven-valued_logic

3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinite-valued_logic

Re: MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. Or maybe you're confusing AND with OR? How can "A and not A" ever be true, let alone tautologically so? Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_noncontradiction

Quantum states can be A and not A. Unknown questions are A and not A. There’s interesting alternative logic systems that try to tackle this. We get into interesting territory when using English and then “is” as a statement. Most English is assumed to have a certain value because of to be. English is almost inherently flawed with logic bugs and assumptions. E-Prime may help with this. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

Okay but I still don't see how the law of the excluded middle says that "a and not a" is always valid.

Re: MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations

#217
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still have never seen a concrete example of a job which is clearly a bullshit job. Any suggestions?

Has always seemed like a rhetorical device to me. In effect no job is actually bullshit since if it was it would be eliminated. The truest "bullshit" job is one where you are absolutely irreplacable for a single, trivial piece of knowledge. I.E. I'm the only one who can print the records at the end of the year, and otherwise I do (practically) nothing. That's how I've always thought of it, but others may disagree. Of…

Bullshit jobs, worth a listen: https://www.npr.org/2018/08/28/642706138/bs-jobs-how-meaning...

Re: MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations

#218
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they are perfectly capable of managing a set of self-contradictory rules This is caused by managers' and middle-managers' performance metrics being tied to the wrong outcomes. The top layer of management's target is the desired outcome. The bottom layer's (the worker) target is also clear, it's to do whatever their manager says to do. In the middle is where it often breaks down; their objectives are short-sighted a…

I still have never seen a concrete example of a job which is clearly a bullshit job. Any suggestions?

I think of as these rent-seeking organizations that don’t provide value and don’t need to exist.

For example, Elsevier has this monopoly on publishing so they need to hire staff to manage everything. Those staff do real jobs- accounting, sales, IT, etc- but there is not value created. So I might call that bullshit.

Layer of layer of real functions and interdependencies of people and groups all costing and resulting in salaries. But if you entirely removed every Elsevier job from existence it could be replaced by scihub with minimal disruption.

Poof all the jobs could disappear. I think of meaningful jobs as those that create some objective value.

Re: MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Problem solved Not at all. There are corrections and amendments. It isn't as complicated as in law, but still.

Corrections and amendments are separate (but related) documents. Preventing them from being retroactively applied to the original version of the source document is the specific thing that a archival-quality document storage is supposed to do (as opposed a non-archival-quality storage, which only needs to protect against data loss (as in turn opposed to a cache, which can rely on a backing storage)).

Looks like you agree that an archival-quality document storage assumes a bit more than hashing papers. That was my point.

Re: MIT Ends Elsevier Negotiations

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a random industry software engineer. :) > In day-to-day, all researchers use these to stay informed on recent results. But how to guarantee that nobody hacks in and figures out how to change a few bytes in one paper that is 10years old? Printed versions + digitally signed and timestamped PDFs. This is a solved problem in the world, at least up to the level that Springer can solve it. > How to guarantee that these…

Just pointing out that Elsevier is ancient in business terms, it's origins as a publisher goes back to the mid 16th century and the modern version of the company is from around the 19th century. I'd be surprised if the company isn't around when I die. In addition to publishing, they (RELX) is one of the biggest companies you've never heard of. They provide information systems to governments all over the world and spa…

The life expectancy of long-lived companies is shorter than you might expect:

> Based on detailed survival analysis, we show that the mortality of publicly traded companies manifests an approximately constant hazard rate over long periods of observation. This regularity indicates that mortality rates are independent of a company's age.

https://doi.org/10.1098/rsif.2015.0120

Post reply on HN