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Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

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Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#211

Post by crazygringo »

orsenthil wrote: post #194
crazygringo wrote: post #107

I'd just like to see more evidence and information before making judgment here. There's no response from Zoom whatsoever, which is odd. Could this have been other users maliciously reporting the account as abuse, and it was closed automatically? Or something else similar? Or if China is putting pressure on Zoom, then how exactly? If Zoom, an American company, really did intentionally close the account of someone livi…

Here are more details shared by Humanitarian China with links to the video recordings and the photos of Zoom blockage. https://docs.google.com/document/d/12DM3ccTe70yzqCDPu9uXlCD7... .

That link (the one in your other comment works) doesn't really say anything the article doesn't already.

All it says is that the account was shut down a week after the event, and that "it seems possible ZOOM acted on pressure from the CCP to shut down our account".

That appears to be pure conjecture however, which is why I want to hear Zoom's side. Nobody's disputing the account was blocked, but there's zero information on why.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#212

Post by Redoubts »

ciarannolan wrote: post #8

I feel like the good faith presumption for this company has to have shifted by now. Is there any reason not to assume that the Chinese government is surveilling Zoom calls en masse? Documenting participants (face, voice, language, location, etc.), recording content, etc. We're talking about the data of 200M+ users. I see people on HN defending Zoom all the time. >The company has acknowledged that much of its product…

> Is there any reason not to assume that the Chinese government is surveilling Zoom calls en masse?

Why does this event move the needle one way or another? The group had a paid account so Zoom knows who they are, and this was a publicized event. All the Chinese government needed to know was an event they don't like was happening, with the services of a company they can exercise soft power over.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#213

Post by jialutu »

refurb wrote: post #190
deathgrips wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communists don't think that political dialogue exists as a genuine process between rational actors. They think that people's political beliefs are a product of their environment and class. This is why they don't like free speech and don't like debates. They think that schools are only capable of indoctrination. Therefore they seek to turn this indoctrination in favor of the workers rather than the bourgeoisie. Edit:…

Why is this being downvoted? It’s a pretty accurate summary of Marxist beliefs.

Well, because even though people on HN loves to preach "open dissent and criticism", HN hates actual dissent and criticism against the HN party line. So I am not surprised she/he got downvoted.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#214

Post by deathgrips »

gonehome wrote: post #189
deathgrips wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not considering the real and terrifying strengths that dictatorship has over democracy. In true democracies the politicians never undertake a plan that lasts longer than one election term because they have no incentive to do so. In China they feel free to undertake 20 year plans with large upfront investments because the party does not care about winning an election every 2-4 years. Why do you automatically as…

There are advantages to the efficiency of authoritarian power, but how do they handle peaceful transition of power? How do they handle abuse? A lot of democratic stability comes from it being hard to change things quickly, separation of power, and the existence of a lot free speech so it's hard to cover things up. Ultimately, with a dependence on the people. I could be persuaded that there are better ways to structur…

>There are advantages to the efficiency of authoritarian power, but how do they handle peaceful transition of power?

Europe had hereditary transitions of power, which were about as peaceful as any other form of transition of power. In Rome you would choose your successor and he would be the next emperor.

> I probably could not be persuaded that limits on speech and government censorship are good long-term for the health of a society that I'd want to actually live in. I think it's a good thing for governments to ultimately be accountable to their people.

Just because it's supposed to work that way doesn't mean it actually works that way. Do you think Americans are using free speech well? Do you feel like the government is accountable to you? In America you have free speech but it's not practically useful for anything. Have a go at trying to stop some government abuse of power.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#215

Post by throwaway8879 »

brnt wrote: post #138
at_a_remove wrote: post #35

I wonder if we'll hear the "they're a private company, they can do what they want, it is only censorship if the government does it" routine. I remember about a decade ago when certain parties were so concerned with voices being silenced and "erasure." The same people are now cheering when Facebook, Twitter, and the like shut down certain kinds of speech, with great discretion as to how the "rules" are implemented. Th…

Going after bigots on your platform does not equal going after activists. Please do not intentionally confuse the two.

One man's activist is another man's bigot.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#216

Post by paulgb »

frabbit wrote: post #157
paulgb wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've wanted to like Jitsi, but the quality difference with Zoom is noticeable. Same with Google Meet and anything I've seen that uses WebRTC. They remind me of RealPlayer back in the early 2000s in terms of blockyness. I would love to know about any Zoom competitors, free or paid, with comparable quality.

Jitsi Meet works fine as long as you do not use Firefox. W.r.t. the general meme about WebRTC, this is old (2018) and explicitly does not claim to be anything other than suggestive: https://jitsi.org/blog/a-simple-congestion-test-for-zoom/

> Jitsi Meet works fine as long as you do not use Firefox.

That's the fix I needed, cheers! For some reason it doesn't impact the Google Meet quality for me but now Jitsi looks great.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#217

Post by deathgrips »

refurb wrote: post #190
deathgrips wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communists don't think that political dialogue exists as a genuine process between rational actors. They think that people's political beliefs are a product of their environment and class. This is why they don't like free speech and don't like debates. They think that schools are only capable of indoctrination. Therefore they seek to turn this indoctrination in favor of the workers rather than the bourgeoisie. Edit:…

Why is this being downvoted? It’s a pretty accurate summary of Marxist beliefs.

It's because HN is basically a subreddit.

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#218

Post by kelnos »

YarickR2 wrote: post #44

So everybody is cool with youtube removing videos and banning channels of RT, Sputnik and pro-Russia accounts; but Zoom doing just the same for the very same reason somehow makes everyone feel bad for Zoom .

Ultimately it boils down to a value judgment.

RT and Sputnik spread misinformation and have coordinated efforts to influence another country's elections.

The activist in question was providing a forum for people affected by the Tiananmen massacre to memorialize their loved ones and ensure people remember what happened.

I'm fine with the first ban, but not the second, and I don't think it's at all weird or hypocritical to hold that position. "Spreading lies with the goal of sowing geopolitical discord" is not the same as "memorializing a historical event that China would rather sweep under the rug".

(And before you say "but the US influences elections all the time", yes, I agree that the US does do that, and I wish it wouldn't, but that's not material to this particular discussion.)

Re: Zoom closes account of U.S.-based Chinese activist after Tiananmen event

#220

Post by ericjang »

I hope I'm not drawing too tenuous of a connection to current events, but I can't help but notice the irony of so many Silicon Valley companies coming out in vocal (and financial!) support of the BLM movement [1], while turning right around and supporting a totalitarian regime in China.

It strikes me as deeply inauthentic that people can be so passionate about some social issues and utterly indifferent or complicit to others. I understand that people can prioritize different issues at different times, and some people say that it's even possible to care about one issue without the expense of another.

Nonetheless, that statement is not substantiated by the level of concern U.S. citizens and woke-minded folks around the world devote to issues like the soft economic power China wields over SouthEast asian countries, the oppression of Uyghur minorities in China, or the political status of pro-democracy countries like Taiwan (to name a few).

Do people only care about a political issue if people threaten to cancel them on Twitter?

[1] https://twitter.com/zoom_us/status/1266877451646283776?s=20

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