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Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

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Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#211
post #148

PSA: Before supplementing Vitamin D, do some research on calcification and Vitamin K2. Or you can trust a random person from the internet and supplement 40mcg K2 mk7 all-trans per every 1000IU of Vitamin D. That seems to be around the usual amount used in studies [1]. I'm not sure if this is the appropriate factor for high Vitamin D dosages of multiple tenths of thousands IU. Personally, I'd be wary of such dosages a…

Why would you be wary? 15min of full body sunexposure will net you ~20,000 IU. Supplementing 8-10,000 IU will not bring you into danger territory by a LONG shot.

Getting vitamin D from the sun is different than from supplements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypervitaminosis_D#Long-term_e...

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#212
post #16

I wonder, when I see stories about studies about treating patients with basic nutrients and vitamins, if a root-cause to consider is that our standard diets are so deprived of essential vitamins and minerals that "treating" someone with what they have been missing causes the body to simply function the way it's supposed to. I haven't read the full study but if it takes into account what someone's diet was prior to th…

Vitamin and mineral deficiencies, including D and Magnesium, are often a sign of metabolic syndrome and not directly because of the lack of those vitamins and minerals in the diet/behavior.

If you have kidney problems, you might be deficient in Vitamin D even with a lot of sunshine.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scientific consensus tends to suggest a serum level of Vit D ~ 30 ng/mL as optimal. Bone abnormalities are expected with levels healthy individuals show most people at <20 ng/mL. My take on the reports is that you want supplementation if it's below 10 ng/mL, with diminishing returns past that. The supplementation required to achieve 30 ng, or even 20 ng/mL for most people probably isn't worth it, and with uninten…

> The supplementation required to achieve 30 ng, or even 20 ng/mL for most people probably isn't worth it, and with unintended health consequences. [citation needed] Safe upper limit is considered 4000 IU daily which will get you up there (and beyond) easily and is very affordable. For comparison, spending a while in the sun with your upper body exposed is easily 10,000 IUs for a light skinned person. > Brown and bla…

Like I said in the comment, this is my take on reports, not the current scientific consensus.

About the desperately needed citations, let's start from these two:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17413106/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6180659/

The first is a study in South Indians. Even among rural workers spending long hours in the tropical sun, the study finds >80% of people had Vit D levels below the 'sufficiency' level of 30 ng/mL, in this otherwise healthy cohort. 44% of them had levels below 20 ng/mL. While this study doesn't report bone density, other studies on rural Indians suggest the osteoporosis prevalence at ~ 1% of the non-elderly population. There are no long term follow up studies in the rural indian population, but it's a reasonable assumption that individuals with very low Vit D levels (ie, The second study is among healthy blood donors in Nairobi, with 95% of subjects with Vit D levels between 12.73–22.07. In both studies, the participants live in tropical environments exposed to high levels of sunshine.

By setting the optimal level of Vit D at 30 ng/mL, it pathologizes these otherwise healthy subjects. The concern is that the long term supplementation required to achieve 30 ng/mL would have unintended consequences, such as inappropriate calcification. As the Nairobi study points out, while low levels of Vit D are linked high levels of parathyroid hormone, beyond a certain point increasing vit D levels are linked to higher PTH levels. PTH leaches calcium out of the skeletal reserves and raises calcium levels in the blood. The deleterious effects of Vit D hypervitaminosis are due to high circulating levels of calcium. The Nairobi study shows that the lowest PTH levels were associated with vit D levels ~ 30 ng/mL, while individuals with vit D of 50 ng/mL had PTH levels similar to those with Vit D levels around 15 ng/mL. From the figure in the paper, it looks like if the goal is to minimise PTH, vit D levels Which brings me to my initial assertion: brown and black people with plenty of sun exposure have naturally lower levels of circulating Vit D, with the average around 20 ng/mL. The Nairobi study points out that greater sun exposure did not significantly increase Vit D levels in this group. They do not seem to suffer greatly elevated levels of bone abnormalities due to this, or any other obvious health concerns. To me, this is suggestive that these levels are naturally equilibrated to be in the 20 ng/mL range, and attempts to push them higher might be deleterious. Setting the standard at 30 ng/mL unnecessarily pathologizes these otherwise healthy people, encouraging supplementation, which is not without health risks.

Dark skinned people who live in high latitudes probably need greater supplementation than their light skinned neighbours, which is reasonable.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#214
post #16

I wonder, when I see stories about studies about treating patients with basic nutrients and vitamins, if a root-cause to consider is that our standard diets are so deprived of essential vitamins and minerals that "treating" someone with what they have been missing causes the body to simply function the way it's supposed to. I haven't read the full study but if it takes into account what someone's diet was prior to th…

Vitamin and mineral deficiencies, including D and Magnesium, are often a sign of metabolic syndrome and not directly because of the lack of those vitamins and minerals in the diet/behavior. If you have kidney problems, you might be deficient in Vitamin D even with a lot of sunshine.

Can someone explain that last sentence ? My Mom has kidney problems, so it would be very useful to know about that.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#215
post #16

I wonder, when I see stories about studies about treating patients with basic nutrients and vitamins, if a root-cause to consider is that our standard diets are so deprived of essential vitamins and minerals that "treating" someone with what they have been missing causes the body to simply function the way it's supposed to. I haven't read the full study but if it takes into account what someone's diet was prior to th…

You are right and it is no secret: - 40% of US Americans are B12 deficient https://www.livekindly.co/b12-deficiency-genetic-makeup/#:~:... . - 42% are Vitamin D deficient: https://www.cantonmercy.org/healthchat/42-percent-of-america... . - up to 50% are Magnesium deficient: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180226122548.h... - 10 - 20% of women are iron deficient: https://www.aafp.org/afp/2007/0301/p671.h…

There is still the question of why so many people are deficient in B12, D, iron, and magnesium. Is it because they don't eat enough of those specific vitamins/minerals or is it because their kidneys/livers/other organs have been damaged by a modern diet or by stress or through environmental pollutants. I'm willing to bet that in developed nations, it is less deficiency of vitamins or minerals in diet and more a defect of the body.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#216
post #16

I wonder, when I see stories about studies about treating patients with basic nutrients and vitamins, if a root-cause to consider is that our standard diets are so deprived of essential vitamins and minerals that "treating" someone with what they have been missing causes the body to simply function the way it's supposed to. I haven't read the full study but if it takes into account what someone's diet was prior to th…

It's also important to consider that drugs work by leveraging a particular mechanism in the body into increased action, creating chain-reactions that are fueled by vitamins and nutrients. As a result, sustained use of that drug (or even short-term use of drugs that act aggressively) would make relevant vitamin and nutrient levels trend towards depletion, among the other listed side effects of that drug. If you take any medications, a normal diet may not be enough to mitigate this.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#217
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vitamin and mineral deficiencies, including D and Magnesium, are often a sign of metabolic syndrome and not directly because of the lack of those vitamins and minerals in the diet/behavior. If you have kidney problems, you might be deficient in Vitamin D even with a lot of sunshine.

Can someone explain that last sentence ? My Mom has kidney problems, so it would be very useful to know about that.

Here's a place to start, but there is a wealth of information on the role of the kidney in vitamin d activation and what can go wrong with different disorders of the kidneys.

https://www.davita.com/diet-nutrition/articles/basics/vitami...

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The scientific consensus tends to suggest a serum level of Vit D ~ 30 ng/mL as optimal. Bone abnormalities are expected with levels healthy individuals show most people at <20 ng/mL. My take on the reports is that you want supplementation if it's below 10 ng/mL, with diminishing returns past that. The supplementation required to achieve 30 ng, or even 20 ng/mL for most people probably isn't worth it, and with uninten…

Yes I'd like to see studies that show what happens if you have higher than 30ng/mL and if these people are on average are happier, fight infection better, lower cancer rate etc. I was saying in my comment we don't have the studies to back up that your 30ng/ml is 100% correct. Unless you can point to studies "scientific consensus" is merely hearsay.

To the point about scientific consensus:

https://doi.org/10.1007%2F978-0-387-77574-6_5

The authors suggest that 30 ng/mL seems like the sweet spot for most health outcomes. Higher levels (~ 50 ng/mL) might be beneficial for fighting cancer, but the risks associated with the prolonged supplementation is unclear, which is why they do not recommend it.

Something to keep in mind is that high levels of vit D are linked with high levels of circulating calcium, which is a problem. Protocols that advocate high Vit D doses, like the Coimbra Protocol for autoimmune diseases (100,000 IU per day), try to keep calcium levels low. The Coimbra Protocol tries to find the Vit D dose that minimises parathyroid hormone levels, and needs a diet practically calcium free to be safe. PTH causes calcium levels in the blood to go up, leading to kidney damage and inappropriate calcification.

Outside of an extreme setting like the Coimbra Protocol, while PTH is inversely linked to Vit D levels, beyond a certain point rising Vit D levels cause PTH levels to go up. This suggests that there exists a sweet spot of circulating vit D that minimises PTH levels.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6180659/

This study among healthy subjects in Nairobi found that the lowest PTH levels were associated with a vit D level around 30 ng/mL.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#219
post #16

I wonder, when I see stories about studies about treating patients with basic nutrients and vitamins, if a root-cause to consider is that our standard diets are so deprived of essential vitamins and minerals that "treating" someone with what they have been missing causes the body to simply function the way it's supposed to. I haven't read the full study but if it takes into account what someone's diet was prior to th…

There is also this general wisdom that Fruit because of Vitamins (in particular Vitamin C) is supposed to be good against the common cold. Numerous studies show that there is no effect. I bet this wisdom doesn't come out of nowhere, but is rather an indicator how bad the average Vitamin (C) supply is. FWIW older people are usually more often indoors and have both higher likelihoods of becoming hospitalized because of…

They're also more likely to have kidney problems that cause vitamin d insufficiency.

Re: Study of the effect of Vitamin D, Magnesium and Vitamin B12 on Covid-19 patients

#220
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps Vitamin D status is just an indicator of adequate sunshine on the skin. This would explain why people with low vitamin D are more susceptible, yet supplementation with Vitamin D is ineffective.

I've seen two theories floated: 1. Vitamin D as a side effect of sun exposure is not itself the important indicator. Instead, some other biological response increases immune response simultaneously. Hence, D supplementation is itself copying the wrong response. 2. Vitamin D deficiency is caused by illness, hence it actually doesn't affect mortality and the relationship is not casual.

I wish more people here thought about the fact that vitamin D deficiency is caused by the same illnesses that Covid-19 is comorbid with. It could still be the vitamin D, but then again, it could be the hypertension, diabetes and ace2 receptors.
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