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How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

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Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#211

Post by Consultant32452 »

makomk wrote: post #201
Consultant32452 wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was nothing incompatible about our values regarding what we saw in that video. The idea that there was a political divide about this incident is a myth. Even the openly racist people I know were saying it was fucked up.

Yeah, pretty much everyone was on the same page about that. What was incredibly and predictably divisive is burning down cities as a response to it, and naturally the American media have been spending a lot of effort fanning those flames.

The worst part is not going to be the brutality that is coming when police/military put a stop to this. That will be horrific, but temporary.

Six months from now, is the average white American small business owner going to be more or less likely to hire a black person? That's the fucked up shit that is going to last another decade. That's the stuff that maintains generational poverty. And there's a thousand other subtle, unspoken things like that which are going to broaden our divide.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#212

Post by rednerrus »

mmastrac wrote: post #22
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

A mob demanding the arrest of someone is its own problem. You just tend to agree with the mob this time. When you disagree with the mob, you'll see the folly in the argument.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#213

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

mmastrac wrote: post #22
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen. The non-violent protests of Colin Kaepernick were mocked and used to rally the other side and just weren't effective. The problem here is not the violence, but a policing system that is…

> I cannot condone violence nor encourage it, but you have to admit that the first few protests and property damage drastically influenced the quick arrest of an officer that may not have been arrested or even fired if it didn't happen.

It is especially important for people to condemn violence that leads to outcomes they are in favor of. Otherwise, groups that are in favor of something else, decide "hey, violence works, voting doesn't" and you descend into horror as different groups all use violence to get their ways.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#214

Post by rednerrus »

solomonb wrote: post #49
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

What are your thoughts on the Boston Tea Party?

Functioning democracy is the key to what OP was saying.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#215

Post by rayiner »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #100
Press2forEN wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the real problem is that those two political parties represent factions of the population with incompatible values. We don't need more political parties, we need solutions to manage the incompatibility.

There was nothing incompatible about our values regarding what we saw in that video. The idea that there was a political divide about this incident is a myth. Even the openly racist people I know were saying it was fucked up.

Yes, but the immediate aftermath of that showed deep disagreement about “what to do about that problem.” Leftists want to dismantle the “systems of oppression” they perceive produces that result. Libertarians want to get rid of qualified immunity and police unions. Conservatives are taken aback by the rioting and violence and for them the immediate need maintaining social order has overtaken the more long term desire to correct these abuses.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#216

Post by neonate »

evmar wrote: post #189
kajumix wrote: post #35

"I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness... But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices —…

MLK gave a speech at Silicon Valley's own Stanford and touched on this subject (the same one with the "riot is the language of the unheard" quote you might have seen circulating). https://www.crmvet.org/docs/otheram.htm See the bit starting with: "Now there's another notion that gets out, it's around everywhere. It's in the South, it's in the North, it's In California, and all over our nation. It's the notion that le…

It's uncanny how perfectly of this moment many of those quotes are. Of course that's because these are very long-term issues. But it's still uncanny.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#217

Post by RcouF1uZ4gsC »

evanlivingston wrote: post #70
marcosdumay wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do not use violence in a democratic protest. To use it is effective acknowledgement that you either want to destroy the democracy or do not believe that it actually exists on the moment.

The American revolution was a violent protest.

It was actually seeking to overthrows the government, and it was treason from the eyes of the British. If the British had won, likely every one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence would have been hanged or worse.

If you want to change the way things are inside the system vote, organize, protest. But actually seeking to overthrow the government is opening a whole can of very, very bad things.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#218

Post by glenda »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

> So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. Taboos around violence for political are one of the crucial building blocks for a functioning democracy. If those taboos are broken, even for a good cause, you set a precedence that violence works. And the next cause won’t be as good. One only has to look at the lessons of the Roman Revolution that started with the murder of Grachus, and ended w…

There is an expression that says "the state has a monopoly on violence" - the government has no issue using violence to get their way, in fact, the essentially have no other tactics. And that's exactly why everyone decided to go protest. Breaking that taboo is a way of taking power back from the state.

Re: How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change

#220

Post by makomk »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #211
makomk wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, pretty much everyone was on the same page about that. What was incredibly and predictably divisive is burning down cities as a response to it, and naturally the American media have been spending a lot of effort fanning those flames.

The worst part is not going to be the brutality that is coming when police/military put a stop to this. That will be horrific, but temporary. Six months from now, is the average white American small business owner going to be more or less likely to hire a black person? That's the fucked up shit that is going to last another decade. That's the stuff that maintains generational poverty. And there's a thousand other sub…

As far as I can tell, the people burning everything down aren't even particularly likely to be black, efforts to spin this as some kind of necessary fight back against racism by people who've been suffering not withstanding. The folks cheering it on and advocating for this to their audiences definitely aren't - they're largely white, middle-class techies and journos and other well-off educated folks who aren't worried about their own communities burning.

The real pain - at least on the inter-generational poverty and deprivation side - is that in six months, the average American small business isn't going to exist in heavily-black neighbourhoods, and that probably won't change much in six years, and other businesses are probably going to be pretty thin on the ground there too. Apparently some places never recovered what they lost in the sixties race riots.

Though I expect that the consequences of the police actions to stop this will also be anything but temporary. It seems to take years of careful work to rebuild trust between police and the community they serve, and to restructure policing to be less hostile and dangerous.

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