Hold on. Corporate research labs are _fundamentally different_ than academic research labs. Why? Time horizon. Companies will not fund research that has a more-than-20-year expected time to product. Usually, they won't fund things that will take more than 10 years to go from R&D to product. That's because of investment-- think about startups, what LP wants to put money in a fund for more than 20 years? On the other h…
The death of corporate research labs
211–220 of 256 posts
Re: The death of corporate research labs
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
Is the Space Shuttle really a great example? Two of the five exploded killing people and it ended up being more expensive and less efficient than the non reusable Russian equivalent. https://gizmodo.com/the-space-shuttle-was-a-beautiful-but-te...
There were 135 Shuttle missions flown. Two ended in disaster. There is a huge difference between a 1.4% failure rate and a 40% failure rate. NASA got a whole lot of science done with those missions.
Re: The death of corporate research labs
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's difficult for academic labs to keep up, actually. That's probably more an intrinsic problem with academia (lower wages, limited career opportunities, limited resources compared to companies).
There is a spectrum of the kinds of research one might do. My advisor always used to remind me that if a team of good engineers at a big corporation can do something, it's not a good research problem to tackle for a grad student in a uni lab. So we naturally tended to more speculative/fundamental problems, which seems like a good thing - instead of trying to compete with industry labs we augment them.
Re: The death of corporate research labs
#214Hold on. Corporate research labs are _fundamentally different_ than academic research labs. Why? Time horizon. Companies will not fund research that has a more-than-20-year expected time to product. Usually, they won't fund things that will take more than 10 years to go from R&D to product. That's because of investment-- think about startups, what LP wants to put money in a fund for more than 20 years? On the other h…
Why did it fade, though? AT&T was able to fund Bell Labs when it still had a monopoly over the telephone market. The article claims that antitrust laws were relaxed in the 80s, but AT&T was broken up in 1982 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakup_of_the_Bell_System). This break up lead to increased competition and innovation in telecom, but it did come at the cost of Bell Labs losing funding until eventually being spun off into Lucent.
Peter Thiel argued in the book Zero to One that only monopoly (or pseudo monopoly) businesses can afford to fund surplus salaries and corporate research labs that cost billions of dollars with potentially little or no gain for many years. I would argue that if a corporation exists in a competitive industry, their margins are driven too low to fund basic research.
Also note: even in the U.S. corporations fund a good chunk of basic research in academia: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/03/data-check-us-govern...
Re: The death of corporate research labs
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's difficult for academic labs to keep up, actually. That's probably more an intrinsic problem with academia (lower wages, limited career opportunities, limited resources compared to companies).
There is a spectrum of the kinds of research one might do. My advisor always used to remind me that if a team of good engineers at a big corporation can do something, it's not a good research problem to tackle for a grad student in a uni lab. So we naturally tended to more speculative/fundamental problems, which seems like a good thing - instead of trying to compete with industry labs we augment them.
What makes you think the advisor's projects were genuinely more speculative or more fundamental vs just dead ends that nobody cared about? It's not like corp labs don't fund fundamental work. Google was funding quantum computers for a long time now.
Re: The death of corporate research labs
#216Bell Labs and Xerox PARC are the poster children for successful corporate R&D labs, but I wonder if, to some extent, they were in the right place at the right time? The advent of modern computing and digital telephony provided rich soil for impactful research. I worked for a large R&D lab a while back after completing my PhD, but the organization turned out to be completely directionless. Funding went to snake-oil sa…
I think the largest corporate R&D lab at the moment must be Huawei. Last time I've heard from someone working there, they have more than 10K PhDs working for them and even only half of them working on R&D that is really massive. It also being helped by the fact its founder is an ex military R&D engineer. The silver lining is that since doing R&D is necessary for progress and innovation, it will happen elsewhere. I fo…
Anecdata: My team of 12 or so at Google had (I think) 4 PhDs, and what we did was the usual "turn one proto into another" Google work that barely required a CS undergrad degree, to say nothing of a PhD. My wife has a PhD, works as a software engineer, and also does pretty routine data plumbing work.
Re: The death of corporate research labs
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
Very good points. I think we (I, maybe) default to the mistake of thinking in terms of "one big systemic explanation." Ultimately, something like investment in or success at innovation doesn't follow strict rules. The factors that go into it tend to be local. Any practicable "Theory of Innovation" is likely to be true locally, at best. A few years back Neil Degrasse Tyson, advocating for a re-funding of the NASA spac…
He was wrong, although the space exploration pioneering that SpaceX may do (landing on mars, for example) seems more likely to be motivated by passion than by shareholder returns.
This stereotype of the corporate executive who only cares about increasing profits is based on a kernel of truth, but only because the world is full of mature companies whose leadership are devoid of ideas for where they go next .. so why not focus on optimisation ("shareholder returns")? But then again the world is full of NGOs with no vision, it's full of academic departments churning out low quality grant applications just so they can expand their labs. Lack of vision and a focus on money is hardly unique to any one kind of group. At least shareholder returns are about making money for other people rather than yourselves!
Re: The death of corporate research labs
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you are a poor kid, you upload your interpretation of a Bach piece and get slammed by an injust, extralegal pseudo-copyright mechanism, that’s in essence an attack on human culture.. MIT and Khan Academy could easily host their content using BitTorrent and reduce their bandwidth usage by 95% ( https://nrkbeta.no/2008/03/02/thoughts-on-bittorrent-distrib... )
Why do you think that a dozen of startups in the space remaining after a possible youtube demise won't be burdened by the same policies? I think that the copyright lobby would try their best to tighten their control at a time when a huge corp stopped throwing its weight against them. What youtube gives to the poor kid is instant and free access to a huge audience. Yes, it's comes with an (admittedly not really high)…
But it’s simple, video is more versatile, and by removing youtube’s monolithic dominance, you remove the single point of failure that copyright cartels have been able to attack.
As an example, imagine a separate youtube-clone dedicated to education that was actually willing to fight for fair use! Or a youtube that didn’t automatically demonetized you for swearing.
Internet already gives these kids (and the rest of us) both access and audience, we have just been stupid enough to lock large parts of our cultural heritage into corporate silos, protected by “intellectual property”-laws. Competition wouldn’t solve this completely, but it would make it harder to distort the market.
Re: The death of corporate research labs
#219I know it's not a popular topic around here, but I'm confused that corporate taxes are not mentioned at all. Wasn't one major incentive for creating research labs that such investments in R&D were tax deductible, and the drastic lowering of these taxes since the 80s made that point moot?
I’m surprised you are the only one mentioning this. You change the rules of the game, you change the game.
Re: The death of corporate research labs
#220Hold on. Corporate research labs are _fundamentally different_ than academic research labs. Why? Time horizon. Companies will not fund research that has a more-than-20-year expected time to product. Usually, they won't fund things that will take more than 10 years to go from R&D to product. That's because of investment-- think about startups, what LP wants to put money in a fund for more than 20 years? On the other h…
The reason it appears rare is because funding research on the assumption it might be useful in more than 20 years from now is extremely wasteful. Companies don't work so far ahead because the risk of just going down a dead-end for half a lifetime is very, very high. In academia that doesn't matter because people are rewarded merely for researching novel things, in the real world people are rewarded for doing things that are useful.
It matters. For every DNA you can cite, others can cite dead end branches that despite decades of research have gone nowhere and probably never will. In CS, how many programmers are using Haskell every day? It's been in development for 35 years yet virtually nobody uses it - the new languages that gain traction (Rust, Swift, Go, Kotlin etc) invariably come from corporate R&D labs, and outside of a few bits of useful syntax borrow little from academic research languages. Even Haskellers have admitted now that lazyness was a dead end, new FP langs like Idris don't have it. Practically the entire field of PL research was swallowed up by FP and continues to be dominated by that paradigm (e.g. dependent types), despite the vast majority of PL users being disinterested in them.
Computational epidemiology. It's been researched for >20 years yet the models are always wrong. There are private sector epi models, but not surprisingly little work is done on them because there's obviously a missing piece, and developing huge and insanely complex simulations (e.g. the 15,000 LOC monster Ferguson produced) is obviously a dead end.
String theory. How much time has been sunk into that? Not a single testable prediction.
And in biology. You know, one biotech firm found 9 in 10 papers don't replicate. Papers professional labs can't replicate is not "useful in 20 years". That's "not useful today and never". People were selectively breeding for many centuries. Agritech firms would have eventually figured out the structure of DNA if Watson and Crick hadn't.
Meanwhile we tend to take for granted all the long term R&D projects the private sector does because it's much better at finding useful outcomes quicker. It doesn't need to wait 20 years to find products out of the research it does, and that's good!