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Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

reuters.com

211–220 of 568 posts

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#211
post #14
post #3

I've been wondering about the UK contact tracing app because they seem to be deliberately misleading saying that data is secure on the phone, yet it's a centralised model, and they are using bullshit terms like "clinically secure algorithm" to describe the one-time codes; Is the source code of these apps something that could be FOI requested from NHSx seeing as it is publicly funded by the tax payer? Also they've alr…

> Is the source code of these apps something that could be FOI requested There's no need for such a request. They themselves say " We intend to open source our codebase once the design is finalised " here: https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/report/nhs-covid-19-app-privacy-secu...

Yeah, that what the Australian government said. That's what their own Privacy Impact Assessment document recommended.

That's what they recently told us they were not going to do after all. Because security.

:sigh:

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#212
post #184
post #3

I've been wondering about the UK contact tracing app because they seem to be deliberately misleading saying that data is secure on the phone, yet it's a centralised model, and they are using bullshit terms like "clinically secure algorithm" to describe the one-time codes; Is the source code of these apps something that could be FOI requested from NHSx seeing as it is publicly funded by the tax payer? Also they've alr…

It looks like you won't have to petition for it. According to https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/files/NHS-app-security-paper%20V0.1.... , "We intend to open source our codebase once the first release is finalised. The documentation accompanying that release will supersede this paper." and from https://www.ncsc.gov.uk/blog-post/security-behind-nhs-contac... , "The Secretary of State has also committed to making the source code…

Australia has deployed their app but haven't released the source code yet, and may not release all of it, so until it actually happens who knows.

Also while the app on the phone has been released, the actual data wont be sent on to contract tracers until more testing and privacy policies are finalised.[0] [0]https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-02/coronavirus-app-curre...

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious if "accountability" actually means anything in practice, or if it's just some of the Palantir corporate kool-aid. I don't think everyone associates government agencies with pristine records of holding themselves accountable.

I’ve only worked with a handful of LEOs in my time there, but the ones I did work with were genuinely concerned about it. If you’ve never worked with a government agency before, let me tell you, Hanlon’s Razor is in full effect. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. The higher ups know that free reign for their officers to look up anything is a recipe for legal nightmares. The ind…

It prevents crimes of opportunity, much like leaving a brand new macbook pro in the driveway is a bad idea.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#214
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Palantir is involved Holy shit, and I didn't think that this whole contact tracing bullshit could look even worse.

Can someone please explain to me how a “libertarian” like Peter Thiel could start and run one of the most anti libertarian companies? What are his beliefs, exactly? I mean besides “zero to one” and “competition is for losers, build a monopoly”? I wonder how much effect he had on Zuck early on. He was the first big check in. Seems it was a great match there.

Because his wealth isn't enough and he can still insert himself into other policies to obtain more influence, more power, and more money?

My question to you is why you care what Thiel thinks and why you're dissapointed. As far as I'm concerned, these guys are the lowest of the low and they only hold their position through gross exploitation.

Nobody should be amassing this impossible wealth and seeking to gain more and these CEOs are basically economic despots to my mind.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could argue the exact same about literally any database used by the government. Their tools are just easier to use and more expressive. If you don’t like the bullshit the government does, that seems like an issue you should take up with the government, no? You’re using a tech company as a scapegoat.

Some databases used by governments are for things like making sure people driving cars have received the required training/certifications to share public roads, or that their vehicles carry the necessary insurance. Other databases get used to track down, torture, and murder critical journalists - by dismembering them with a bone saw while they're still alive. Remind me again which kind of database Palantir staff work…

Well, when I was at Palantir I worked with police departments integrate a dozen or so databases so looking someone up took one query rather than several, cutting down on the time needed for traffic stops drastically.

The software was also used to run double blind clinical drug trials - the acl granularity was great at that; you could have different roles for drug manufacturers, doctors, and patients, none of which had absolute information. Then trial supervisors could open up the data for analysis at the end of the trial.

At that same time, the ability to use GPS phones to upload data over unreliable networks was used when they teamed up with the Clinton foundation and Team Rubicon to improve disaster relief coordination for hurricanes.

Myself or coworkers (“Palantir staff”) worked on all of these.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#216
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you will see that Apple does keep track of at least some of your location history That's not Apple keeping the data, that's your phone keeping the data. And that data isn't accessible to Apple - only you and your device. From page 6 of https://www.apple.com/privacy/docs/Location_Services_White_P... "This data is not shared with third parties, is fully encrypted, and can’t be read by Apple."

That claim is worthless when the software is closed source. It's impossible to verify.

Well you can always look at the network packets, most easily accomplished from jailbroken devices. There are many people who look at such matters. It's far from worthless.

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#217

Its interesting that they call this a "Contact Tracing app" even after changing the naming to ExposureNotification.framework I think these restrictions are meant to win confidence with a somewhat skeptical public. This will also confine the apps to be single purpose for contact tracing only.

What is interesting about that?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#218

We probably shouldn't call them "contact tracing" apps since what they plan to do is so different than manual contact tracing. "Exposure notification" is a better term. Nothing prevents anyone from using their phone's location history to remember what to tell the contact tracing people.

What exactly is the difference?

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#219
post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Palantir is involved Holy shit, and I didn't think that this whole contact tracing bullshit could look even worse.

Can someone please explain to me how a “libertarian” like Peter Thiel could start and run one of the most anti libertarian companies? What are his beliefs, exactly? I mean besides “zero to one” and “competition is for losers, build a monopoly”? I wonder how much effect he had on Zuck early on. He was the first big check in. Seems it was a great match there.

There's libertarians, and then there's libertarians. Thiel is a huge fan of Hans Hermann-Hoppe, who writes things like:

"In a covenant concluded among proprietor and community tenants for the purpose of protecting their private property, no such thing as a right to free (unlimited) speech exists, not even to unlimited speech on one's own tenant-property. One may say innumerable things and promote almost any idea under the sun, but naturally no one is permitted to advocate ideas contrary to the very purpose of the covenant of preserving and protecting private property, such as democracy and communism. There can be no tolerance toward democrats and communists in a libertarian social order. They will have to be physically separated and expelled from society. Likewise, in a covenant founded for the purpose of protecting family and kin, there can be no tolerance toward those habitually promoting lifestyles incompatible with this goal. They – the advocates of alternative, non-family and kin-centered lifestyles such as, for instance, individual hedonism, parasitism, nature-environment worship, homosexuality, or communism – will have to be physically removed from society, too, if one is to maintain a libertarian order."

This quote is from Hoppe's "Democracy: The God That Failed", which Thiel has referenced before. The overall thesis there is that economic freedom is the cornerstone of libertarianism, and it's fundamentally incompatible with democracy, so libertarians have to explore other options. It specifically promotes monarchy, on the basis that a monarch is more like a business owner with a vested long-term interest.

You might argue that this isn't really libertarianism - indeed, many libertarians don't consider Hoppe to be one. This is basically proto-neo-reaction, at the point where it still hasn't explicitly rejected libertarianism altogether. But regardless of where you draw the line, this all is the evolution of Murray Rothbard's strain of libertarianism, after it moved away from social liberalism towards paleoconservatism - it's not just some random people coming and declaring their politics to be "libertarian" out of the blue. Nor is there any shortage of ex-libertarians in NRx circles, so it's clearly a common path, not unique to Thiel.

Needless to say, the libertarian paradise described above could use something like Palantir to implement the "covenant".

Re: Apple, Google ban location tracking in apps using their contact-tracing system

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not just a straw man it's a straw giant.

True. I just haven’t been following this. I’m glad to hear it’s completely voluntary.

Which is very unfortunate, because it means it'll be far less effective.
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