Why shouldn't students be willing to eat the costs in order to help save the vulnerable population of COVID-19? Why is it the schools fault for this happening?
Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds
211–220 of 292 posts
Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
I trust youtube videos rated well by millions of people over the average professor's ability to convey info. Few people go to the top colleges with the best professors.
"top colleges" are "top" because of rankings prioritizing research output. Don't expect them to have a monopoly on the best teachers.
Watch a video from a Harvard prof and then one from a directional state school. The Harvard guy usually expects a lot more out of his students, but he's also a million times better at explaining the course content.
Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds
#213I remember wondering aloud at MIT/Harvard putting their courses online for free for anyone to listen to, and saying, well what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college? I guess we're going to find out whether the networking, friends, social aspect is worth it. There's also something about the competitive aspect of seeing other people in person do better than you or have better ideas than you. Which…
> what is the value add then of paying to physically go to college?
If you can tell from a resume someone attended in-person, it gives their degree more academic integrity. Not that you can't cheat if you attend in-person, but it's a whole lot harder to pay someone to take the exam for you.
Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds
#214Not too surprising that the experience wasn’t good. Having taught in-person and online before, I can guarantee that these students ended up with a sub-optimal experience at best. Teaching online is drastically different than in-person and is not something you can easily pick-up in short notice. Made worse is that they were in the middle of a syllabus designed for in-person instruction. How material is delivered, what…
Are universities prepared for something like this though? Do they have some kind of pandemic insurance that will cover the costs of the entire student body if the government shuts the university down? Because I can see that being a very costly insurance.
They have endowments.
The colleges/universities that aren't managed by complete idiots use those endowments to hedge exactly this sort of risk.
There were a lot of articles over the past few years about various teeny tiny colleges investing their entire endowment in funds and yelling from the rooftops that they out-performed Harvard's endowment.
The bill is going to come due. Over the next two years, a lot of small colleges that were investing for annual returns instead of for ensuring institutional survival are going to collapse under the quadruple whammy of refunds, lawsuits, decreased enrollment, and decimated endowment.
Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds
#215Not too surprising that the experience wasn’t good. Having taught in-person and online before, I can guarantee that these students ended up with a sub-optimal experience at best. Teaching online is drastically different than in-person and is not something you can easily pick-up in short notice. Made worse is that they were in the middle of a syllabus designed for in-person instruction. How material is delivered, what…
I've not taught online, but I have a close colleague who was doing it for years pre-pandemic, and another colleague who did a bit of it and my impressions are the same. My sense is that major universities doing online stuff have video production crews (from Communications etc) and everything is heavily edited and redone. It's more like a television show than anything else. Much more preplanning, and interactions with…
Its not so much that anything is wrong with college, it is that the cost isn't commiserate with the expected payout (for most). Yet we, as a society, push people who are barely adults into a lifetime of debt slavery like sheep to the slaughter.
Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've not taught online, but I have a close colleague who was doing it for years pre-pandemic, and another colleague who did a bit of it and my impressions are the same. My sense is that major universities doing online stuff have video production crews (from Communications etc) and everything is heavily edited and redone. It's more like a television show than anything else. Much more preplanning, and interactions with…
Its not so much that anything is wrong with college, it is that the cost isn't commiserate with the expected payout (for most). Yet we, as a society, push people who are barely adults into a lifetime of debt slavery like sheep to the slaughter.
This is definitely changing now. It was like this when I went to college 15 years ago but the tides are changing.
Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds
#217Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have no idea whether there's a legal basis for the argument, I'm just stating my opinion on what would be a fair outcome. > They want all the benefits plus a healthy refund. I don't think this is an accurate portrayal of the situation, unless you think the entire value of a college education is instruction, grading, and the piece of paper at the end. the school I went to was very much like this: I went to class, go…
There's no doubt that the on campus experience is valuable. "all the benefits" was a bad choice of words. Maybe a better way to say it is that they want to choose which parts they get to pay for (the credits, the material, online interaction with the instructor, grading, homework, exams) but then be refunded for other parts related to the on campus experience. I'd say that's reasonable if and only if the university s…
ultimately this is an argument about who gets to eat a shit sandwich that isn't really the fault of anyone involved. personally, I'm a bit more sympathetic to the students than the large institution, but I can understand your perspective. I certainly don't want schools to go under from refunding tuition.
as I understand it, there's a certain amount of "funny money" going on with private institutions. the actual cost of a year of school doesn't reconcile with tuition receipts; it gets supplemented with donations, state funds, and returns on the endowment. this makes it sort of hard to put a dollar value on what a fair tuition refund would look like.
Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would agree the door-opening effect is true for many walks of life but it doesn't apply to software engineering and similar disciplines. I'm a drop out; I studied economics and have been doing very technical work (low latency application development) for over 15 years now. Worked for UBS, Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, HSBC, etc. No one ever asked me about my degree. They were all (rightfully) interested in what I…
Did you have a hard time getting your foot in the door? After 15 years, most people do not care anymore about your education; but when getting that first job, unless you have an impressive portfolio (and even then...), that piece of paper is huge. With a recognised piece of paper, you can get much more easily get into a recognised company, which has a trickle down effect for the rest of your career.
I was looking for my first job during the dotcom crisis and it took me about 18 months. I took a semi-programming job at slavery-level salary just to get my foot in.
What really helped was the fact that I had spent 3 months as an unpaid intern at a reputable software house 2 years earlier.
I remember my friends mocking me back than for being a looser and an idiot for "working for free".
This sentiment (entitlement?) is even stronger among young people today. They refuse to acknowledge that when you come in with zero experience and nothing to offer and get free training - you are the real beneficiary.
Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
Its not so much that anything is wrong with college, it is that the cost isn't commiserate with the expected payout (for most). Yet we, as a society, push people who are barely adults into a lifetime of debt slavery like sheep to the slaughter.
This is definitely changing now. It was like this when I went to college 15 years ago but the tides are changing.
I hope that is true. I graduated from undergraduate 10 years ago. My alma mater used to be very good bang for your buck, arguably the best traditional engineering and nursing school in the state, less than 5000 a year, accept almost everyone and fail the ones who won't make it early so they can do other things. But pressure from the state government shifted funding to retention rates so that model of education was dying.
Re: Unimpressed by online classes, college students file lawsuits for refunds
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
Are universities prepared for something like this though? Do they have some kind of pandemic insurance that will cover the costs of the entire student body if the government shuts the university down? Because I can see that being a very costly insurance.
They have endowments. The colleges/universities that aren't managed by complete idiots use those endowments to hedge exactly this sort of risk. There were a lot of articles over the past few years about various teeny tiny colleges investing their entire endowment in funds and yelling from the rooftops that they out-performed Harvard's endowment. The bill is going to come due. Over the next two years, a lot of small c…
>> They have endowments.
A small minority of colleges have endowments worth discussing.