The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church • Hacker News Board

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#211

Post by zigzaggy » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:19 PM UTC

knicholes wrote: post #197

umvi wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. This is definitely not true. It may have been the case for you, but my dad and brother/wife all left years ago without any problems at all. We are still on great terms.

I dunno. One has to deal with the random crying, the questions of "Why haven't you baptized your children? I want to spend eternity with my grandbabies!", "They need primary!", etc. Then there's the endless gossip at family activities when you're absent about how you're leading your family to hell.

Wow this sounds eerily familiar as someone who walked away from “nondenominational” fundamentalism years ago. From my wedding, to how I’m raising my kids, to even my daily spiritual life - “we’re praying for you.” Thanks but no thanks.

Maybe anyone that walks away from family norms gets this. Maybe the more extreme/rigid the belief is, the stronger the reaction is?

It’s been a long time for me, and over time most people have accepted it on some level. Christmas time seems to be the worst... probably why I don’t even like the holidays that much anymore!

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#212

Post by dkarl » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

hunter-gatherer wrote: post #185

tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

> It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. This is definitely not true. As a Utah native and one who left for my own reasons and still has family in the church, I would say that this statement is completely false. The Mormon church does not practice nor endorse any doctrine relating to shunning or harassment. Just because you left with some personality conflicts and bad terms w…

I have a close friend who experienced this. Just because the church has no official policy doesn't mean it doesn't happen. People showing up at your door for years when you've repeatedly asked for it to stop happening, including new addresses you move to after asking not to be contacted again (I've witnessed this personally, and it is deeply distressing and invasive), is harassment no matter what the intention behind it. And of course there is no official policy of "shunning," but individuals among your friends and family can be counseled that contact with you seems to be interfering with their faith and should be curtailed for their own spiritual good.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#213

Post by whokal » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

mml wrote: post #175

weare138 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God." -Jesus Matthew 19:24

It’s “the eye of the needle”. It was a very narrow gate into Jerusalem, which camels had difficulty traversing.

This. The imagery is that a rich person carrying too much stuff would have difficulty going through the gate whereas a poor person wouldn’t.

More reflection is required for a deeper understanding.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#214

Post by bathtub365 » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:22 PM UTC

hunter-gatherer wrote: post #185

tomrod wrote: post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

> It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. This is definitely not true. As a Utah native and one who left for my own reasons and still has family in the church, I would say that this statement is completely false. The Mormon church does not practice nor endorse any doctrine relating to shunning or harassment. Just because you left with some personality conflicts and bad terms w…

You are both making broad statements about the church and using anecdotes to support those statements. Why should I believe either of you?

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#215

Post by darksaints » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:23 PM UTC

sturgill wrote: post #151

darksaints wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Mormon church tried for years to pretend that their leaders don't make money from the church. That too was confirmed as a lie not too long ago.

Find me the executive team of a multimillion person company with hundreds of billions of assets making the living stipend of the (relatively few) ecclesiastical leaders of the Church and your argument will have more weight. IIRC, the living stipend for members of the Twelve was around $100k? Or less than the salary of an intern at Google...

What you need to understand is that Thomas Monson, who was an employee of the church (notorious for their extremely low pay) for his entire career, had an estimated net worth of $14m. That is excluding the church owned property that he gets to use free of charge, including private jets, cars, and homes. This is excluding free income sources such as free university for all family and extended family members. Outside of nearly every aspect of his life that was paid for, he was paid a parsonage stipend...untaxed by the IRS.

He was no Jeff Bezos, but that is still miles away from being modestly compensated, as they like to pretend is happening. And remember, they're only admitting to being modestly compensated after a century and a half of pretending they weren't being compensated at all...a lie exposed by leaks, not the mormon church. They haven't been upfront about compensation, and they never will unless they are forced to.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#216

Post by tomrod » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

dkarl wrote: post #212

hunter-gatherer wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. This is definitely not true. As a Utah native and one who left for my own reasons and still has family in the church, I would say that this statement is completely false. The Mormon church does not practice nor endorse any doctrine relating to shunning or harassment. Just because you left with some personality conflicts and bad terms w…

I have a close friend who experienced this. Just because the church has no official policy doesn't mean it doesn't happen. People showing up at your door for years when you've repeatedly asked for it to stop happening, including new addresses you move to after asking not to be contacted again (I've witnessed this personally, and it is deeply distressing and invasive), is harassment no matter what the intention behind…

Very much this.

Here is a comment where I detail the organizational trends that I believe justify my comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22276276

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#217

Post by Robin_Message » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:24 PM UTC

curiousgeorgio wrote: post #204

Robin_Message wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANATheologian but I think many if not most Christian denominations teach that people are saved exclusively by faith. Works are interpreted as a sign of faith in some Protestant denominations, which lead to the concept of the Protestant work ethic.

IAANATheologian (I am also not a theologian), but I suppose those other Christian denominations conveniently skipped chapter 2 of James, where it says: "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the…

I think the Protestants focused on that last sentence, taking it to mean that you are saved by faith, but you can assess if someone does truly have faith by their works. So you are not saved by the works, but if you don't have works, your faith is questionable.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#218

Post by abnry » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:25 PM UTC

zmix wrote: post #153

One of my favorite passages from the New Testament is this: Matthew 19:16-30 New International Version (NIV)[1] The Rich and the Kingdom of God 16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” 17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 “Which ones?” he inquired.…

There are numerous rich disciples of Jesus. It is not clear that all of them gave away all of their wealth.

You are correct that love of money and possessions is crucial concern as a Christian, and that Christians are taught to rely on the Lord for their day to day needs.

But ultimately it is the heart attitude towards money. Money is a resource like any other resource, such as time or people. You can be idolatrous about any resource, including money, but it isn't having the resource that is bad.

Anyone who is a true follower of Jesus would be willing to lose their wealth for his sake if necessary (just as it might be leaving family for the sake of being a Christian), but just having wealth isn't the problem.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#219

Post by tomrod » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

lotsofityetnone wrote: post #158

Ididntdothis wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bet there are some people in the background who make tons of money through contracts as suppliers . Seems this happens with most big non profits.

You bet or do you know? Just sounds like you're accusing people without any proof.

It is a reasonable expectation given lack of financial transparency.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#220

Post by tzs » Sat, Feb 08, 2020, 5:27 PM UTC

Iwillgetby wrote: post #78

Question as a member. Would today be a good day to request that janitorial services be restored? Do I really need to clean the church's toilets once a year to get to heaven?

That's the thing I find most interesting about the Mormon church.

In most other churches if you don't get into heaven your afterlife really really really sucks. They tend to be very binary--eternity in paradise, or eternity of inconceivable torture and torment.

Mormon afterlife has four possible destinations: the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, the Telestial Kingdom, and the outer darkness.

The Celestial Kingdom corresponds with heaven of other Christian sects.

The outer darkness kind of corresponds to hell in that it is where Satan resides, but I don't know if it is a place to torment like it is in other sects.

It's pretty hard to get sent to the outer darkness. It's for people who know that God is real, and choose to go against Him. Note that this does not include people that are told about God and do not believe--it is people who receive a personal revelation that He exists and still reject it.

Those who are merely told about God and reject those teachings, but who were decent people get the Terrestrial Kingdom.

Those who don't qualify for that because they were not decent, such as liars, sorcerers, whoremongers, etc., get the Telestial Kingdom. They are resurrected and given an immortal physical body. No torment or torture...the Telestial Kingdom is supposed to be a very nice place to live out your now eternal physical life.

The Telestial Kingdom sounds acceptable to me, and I'd probably actually make it to the Terrestrial Kingdom if Mormonism turns out to be right.

So what's the case to convert to Mormonism, or for people raised Mormon to stick with it? With the churches with the binary paradise/infinite torture afterlife, a Pascal's Wager type argument might work, even if I think there is a low probability that the church is right.

With Mormonism, if I think that there is only a low probability that it is right, a Pascal's Wager approach can tell me to optimize for my mortal life.

Even if I decide that some sort of Christian or Christian offshoot must be correct, if I narrow it down to a list that includes Mormonism and one or more of the eternal damnation sects, another Pascal's Wager like argument would tell me to pick one of the eternal damnation sects.