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Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

bbc.com

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Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#211

Post by firepoet »

keanzu wrote: post #175

> noticed about Norway when we were in Oslo A lot can be achieved when your country floats on oil. The Government Pension Fund Global, aka the Oil Fund, was worth about $195,000 per Norwegian citizen in 2018. If others had this kind of safety net they might behave in a similar manner. Petrostates can afford a lot of leisure time for their citizens.

What about when your country (like mine) is a technological superpower and allows the super rich to keep all of the wealth generated by our greatest minds locked up? We could do the same if we had the courage.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#213

Post by HBKXNCUO »

krastanov wrote: post #198
HBKXNCUO wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>or independence. Why would you consider it to be an important goal for either parent to have "independence"? What is so wrong with being dependent on your spouse when raising children together that it should even come up as a consideration? Raising children well is hard enough and time consuming enough as it is. Why try to make it harder by also trying to make sure neither parent is dependent on the other?

I really do not understand the premise of your question. Yes, there is nothing wrong with one of the spouses being a home maker that is dependent on the monetary support of the professional spouse if this is what they want . But to turn your question around, what is so wrong with having other options!? Of course at the end being in a relationship and having kids is a partnership and people should rely on one another,…

What is wrong with having other options is that there is a cost associated with maintaining those other options, and the children will be paying it one way or another.

Raising children well is enormously time consuming and difficult. Parents who want to do a good job don't have the luxury of abundant time and energy. Any effort spent maintaining these other options is done at the expense of the children.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#214

Post by Nimitz14 »

the_af wrote: post #118
toasterlovin wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Finally, a country that understands that one of the driving forces of gender inequality is the asymmetry of experience caused by maternal leave. The asymmetry of experience is actually caused by child bearing, which can only be done by women. Maternal leave is downstream from that.

Disagreed. Child bearing is only an initial factor; after the baby is out it goes away. The problem is breastfeeding, but there are ways around that (and some mothers, for a variety of reasons or impediments, don't breastfeed; in that case it's completely moot). So minus breastfeeding, the asymmetry has a large component of "it was always done like this", plus the mistaken idea some employers have that the leave is s…

A counterpoint: A friend of mine had a kid a year ago and he found it impossible to take care of the baby when he tried being the caretaker while the mom was away (can't breastfeed, milk in a bottle is not the same). The experience has convinced him equal parental leave is a terrible idea.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#215

Post by tlamponi »

toasterlovin wrote: post #125
kraigie wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paternity leave is a lot easier to implement than artificial wombs.

We could also stop pressuring women to conform to male standards of behavior and economic performance and instead celebrate the fact that they alone are able to perform the sacred work of growing and nurturing new human life. Then the “problem” that policies like this are trying to fix simply ceases to exist.

This is a framework to give both, father and mother, a choice. Nobody is pressured to take it, but they are able to if they want. That's the differences.

Effectively it does away a implicit pressure that the mother needs to be home and the father needs to work, i.e., the contrary you suggest. Celebration does nothing to help any side of this, if facing reality when bringing up a child. Such improvements for equal chances allow to do that though.

As said, nobody is forced too, if they do want to keep the "old fashioned roles", for whatever reason, sensible or not, they may still do so.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#216

Post by pbhjpbhj »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #44
wutwutwutwut wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know this before you got them? I would rather be with my kids than working.

No, after. I want them to thrive, but they're not at an age yet where I can fully appreciate time with them.

Wowser, what work do you do?

Have you never been involved in a long project that was initially unfruitful but ultimately rewarding when you stuck at it? It's not supposed to be enjoyable, you're nurturing your child to establish the foundation on which your life together is built and to help them prosper.

You're right, it's extremely mentally challenging in those first months before they start to communicate with you directly (as opposed to general communication of crying!). But it's part of the whole experience that bonds you together in a way I'd never have imagined was possible.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#217

Post by HBKXNCUO »

onion2k wrote: post #195
HBKXNCUO wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>or independence. Why would you consider it to be an important goal for either parent to have "independence"? What is so wrong with being dependent on your spouse when raising children together that it should even come up as a consideration? Raising children well is hard enough and time consuming enough as it is. Why try to make it harder by also trying to make sure neither parent is dependent on the other?

It's far better to have it and not need it than to need it and not to have it.

That doesn't mean that it's a good idea to have it.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#218

Post by brnt »

HBKXNCUO wrote: post #213
krastanov wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really do not understand the premise of your question. Yes, there is nothing wrong with one of the spouses being a home maker that is dependent on the monetary support of the professional spouse if this is what they want . But to turn your question around, what is so wrong with having other options!? Of course at the end being in a relationship and having kids is a partnership and people should rely on one another,…

What is wrong with having other options is that there is a cost associated with maintaining those other options, and the children will be paying it one way or another. Raising children well is enormously time consuming and difficult. Parents who want to do a good job don't have the luxury of abundant time and energy. Any effort spent maintaining these other options is done at the expense of the children.

Please demonstrate this cost and how children would be paying for it. Please use sources.

Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums

#219

Post by toomuchtodo »

bantunes wrote: post #188
toomuchtodo wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of that has been hired out, because my job enables me to. I do work I enjoy so I don’t have to do work I don’t enjoy.

I find it puzzling that someone would choose to embark on the paternity experience, but be very selective about what to experience. Life is not just what we like, and understanding that makes us more balanced individuals. One might think you're spoiled and incapable of dealing with adversity.

Life is what you make of it. You call it spoiled, I call it privilege constructed from skill, determination, and luck.

I’ve had enough adversity for one lifetime, my soul is weary, and refuse to submit to any additional unnecessary suffering. Without knowing my life, you’re not qualified to comment on it. I’m simply sharing my perspective having had my own kids and paternity leave offered.

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