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Tesla Financial Results 2019 Q4

ir.tesla.com

211–220 of 346 posts

Re: Tesla Financial Results 2019 Q4

#211
post #95
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that if this particular CEO were to, like, physically die (or even just throw in the towel) _Tesla_ would immediately die, I challenge this view of the situation. Even in its current, more stable state, this is a good signal that things are going well - this is not something most people can fake, certainly not people "on the spectrum" like Elon.

I would never invest in any company which the bus factor is 1.

How many billions were made off of Amazon with a bus factor of 1?

Re: Tesla Financial Results 2019 Q4

#212
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you describe would be the “bull case” dozens of billions in valuation ago. Right now we are quite disconnected from that, in my analysis. To justify their current valuation, the “bull case” is for them to dominate the entire automative industry (not just the EV segment) and do an Amazon-like turnaround of losses into profitability. Anything short of that, their valuation is ludicrous.

Tesla is not just a car manufacturer though right? They are a solar company and battery company too. They could conceivably have astronomical growth in both of those segments.

The valuation of Tesla also seems very high to me at first, but given their growth in the other segments such as energy storage and generation, I absolutely think that the valuation could be justified.

Tesla owns the entire vertical from battery cell manufacturing, using those cells to do work (automotive), home and grid energy storage, and solar generation. Throw in the rest of Elon’s companies and you also get the transportation network itself (Boring) and even the data provider for these cars that need to be highly connected (Starlink). And if you really want to believe Elon, some weird, someday a pressurized version of the Cybertruck might become the transportation off of this planet.

Re: Tesla Financial Results 2019 Q4

#213
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. My bullish view has more to do with Tesla using the vehicle market as an entry point to the broader energy market. If the Tesla cars start throwing off profit and make the company self-sustaining, their vertically-integrated energy thing opens the kind of insanely huge global energy market. They're not just going to eat Ford's lunch - but also Chevron, Saudi Aramco and your local energy company.

I think you've hit the nail on the head for the bullish Tesla case. I don't think there's enough profits in the automotive industry for Tesla to be worth $105-120B. Sure, Toyota is worth more, but basically no one else is and Tesla is a long time from being the next Toyota and I think the odds of them becoming the next Toyota have to be below 50% and are realistically probably more like 5-10%. That's not a dig at Tes…

> Automotive revenue is basically flat year-over-year. Total revenue is up only 2%. So, Tesla isn't really growing.... On the plus side, Model 3 production and sales are up over 40% YoY which is excellent, but it's clear why revenue is flat: Model S/X sales are down significantly and they carry a high price tag. For every three Model 3 sales, they lost a Model S/X sale. That's certainly to be expected. The Model 3 is really nice. However, it does mean that revenue is flat.

In Q4 2018 they sold 27,607 S/X, and in Q4 2019 they sold 19,475 (-8132, 29%). In Q4 2018 they sold 63,359 M3, and in Q4 2019 they sold 92,620 (+29,261, 46%). Vehicle production over the trailing 12 months increased from ~245k to 365k (~50%).

Why didn't revenue grow? It's not just the 8,000 fewer Model S/X, because S/X doesn't cost 3.6x a Model 3. Just as important was the ASP of the Model 3 fell... about $7,500 to be precise.

> If they're pushing out around 600k cars this year, becoming 10x the size would put them in the same place as Ford and GM. A 17x increase would make them larger than Toyota. But that's going to take time. It looks like Tesla is looking to increase production capacity by 15.6% in 2020 (from their slides).

Tesla says their current production capacity is 640k vehicles (I was surprised by this - it's well beyond the promised "500k run rate by the end of 2019", so I think we're seeing the full effect of Giga Shanghai turning on here).

By mid-2020 Tesla has said they will be running at a 740k annualized production rate based on added Fremont capacity for Model Y. They have said they intend to increase Model 3 capacity in Shanghai and have at least equivalent capacity for Model Y starting in 2021. That means Shanghai + Fremont will be producing nearly 1m annually in 2021. Now, at that point Berlin will be coming online, which is planned to produce 500k units/year. The upshot I think is that production capacity is increasing at a rate of 40-50% year-over-year -- I'm not sure where you got 15.6% from.

> Even if they're the next VW (the second largest auto maker sitting just behind Toyota), VW is only a $95B company - and there's a lot of risk between now and Tesla selling 10M cars per year.

Many people confuse market cap with enterprise value. VW enterprise value is $255B vs $110B for Tesla. You have to subtract the outstanding debt, of which Tesla has very little compared to most automakers, before you get down to Market Cap, which is the value remaining for the shareholders.

All that said, it is clear that the current valuation of Tesla has ceased to be based purely on fundamentals.

Re: Tesla Financial Results 2019 Q4

#214

The bull case for Tesla is clear. Aside from Nissan with the Leaf, who recently loss their galvanizing CEO and who's market cap has tanked since, what major automaker has anywhere near the success of Tesla with EV? No doubt execution has been an issue in the past, but recent sales trends, completion of gigafactory, and Chinese expansion show that they are on the right trend. Tesla's were confined to the luxury market…

What you describe would be the “bull case” dozens of billions in valuation ago. Right now we are quite disconnected from that, in my analysis. To justify their current valuation, the “bull case” is for them to dominate the entire automative industry (not just the EV segment) and do an Amazon-like turnaround of losses into profitability. Anything short of that, their valuation is ludicrous.

> To justify their current valuation, the “bull case” is for them to dominate the entire automative industry (not just the EV segment)

Toyota has over twice the market cap that Tesla has (230 billion vs 105 billion) and considering how big the auto industry is outside of just these 2 companies, I don't know how you think an automotive company at 105 billion is vastly overvalued.

Re: Tesla Financial Results 2019 Q4

#215
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

simple back of the envelope calculation: in 3 years time, they will have 3 giga factories (+1 in upstate new york), each of which should be scale to 500k cars. at an average resale price of $50k (might be a little lower, but let's keep it simple), that's $75B in revenue. at a 10% profit margin, that's $7.5B profit. let's presume a 20x factor as a growth stock, you have an evaluation of $150B, which it's currently tre…

Why do you assume they can sell all those cars, when they can’t even sell all their current capacity of cars? They’ve been able to produce 500,000 cars for awhile, yet only delivering 367,000 this year.

In fact, Deliveries exceeded Production in Q4, Q3, and Q2, and fell short of production by 14,000 vehicles in Q1 2019.

[1] - https://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesl...

[2] - https://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesl...

[3] - https://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesl...

[4] - https://ir.tesla.com/news-releases/news-release-details/tesl...

Re: Tesla Financial Results 2019 Q4

#216
post #3

Congrats to the whole Tesla team + SpaceX. Crushing things. It's taken a long time, but it's all starting to pay off.

I think they should buy this company [0] and sell the vehicle at cost (temporarily) to capture the lowest end of the market, too. [Only half kidding, I was sad to see this happen and couldn't find anywhere else to post about it in my limited free time.] [0] https://www.treehugger.com/bikes/want-buy-high-tech-low-carb...

For the same reason apple doesn't have a cheap, low end iPhone.

Tesla cars are nice cars. Polluting that brand with a cheap bicycle is a mistake IMO.

Re: Tesla Financial Results 2019 Q4

#217
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Short squeeze I think.

There still is billions of dollars short this company. Not that much has changed

> Not that much has changed

The short interest has declined from a high of ~44 million shares in mid-May last year to about 25 million shares currently, which is currently 18.7% of float.

[1] - https://twitter.com/ihors3/status/1222630157535588352/photo/...

Re: Tesla Financial Results 2019 Q4

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GM? Bolt is a great car and GM has enormous production capability. Well aware of the difference in sales figures, but having driven both, I prefer it to the Model S. I think battery tech will end up deciding the market, though, and GM would have to pivot harder that I think they are able to in order to beat Tesla. I am very curious about their internal R&D pipeline for the Maxwell technology.

Why do you prefer the Bolt? From my perspective the Bolt is: -Ugly -Less safe -Slower -Doesn't drive itself, or will be capable in the future Worst of all the Bolt's infotainment system is horrible. https://www.chevrolet.com/content/dam/chevrolet/na/us/englis...

> Why do you prefer the Bolt?

The 2020 Bolt has 259 miles of EPA range and is the best value for money of any EV in the world at the moment. Have a look at these prices:

https://www.cars.com/for-sale/searchresults.action/?mdId=362...

Here's a real world example of someone who has leased a 2020 Bolt:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8Egdi0GU9Y

He has a 2017 Bolt on lease and he was thinking about getting a different EV, but in the end he went with a 3 year lease on a 2020 Bolt because the offer was too good to refuse. He paid $2500 down (which was covered by state EV incentives) and the lease is $147 a month for 12,000 miles per annum.

Show me a better EV deal than that.

Re: Tesla Financial Results 2019 Q4

#219
post #25

I have been a longtime bull, but their stock value is now up over 140% in the last 3 months and I can't say I fully understand why.

I dunno. My bullish view has more to do with Tesla using the vehicle market as an entry point to the broader energy market. If the Tesla cars start throwing off profit and make the company self-sustaining, their vertically-integrated energy thing opens the kind of insanely huge global energy market. They're not just going to eat Ford's lunch - but also Chevron, Saudi Aramco and your local energy company.

Indeed.

At the very least Tesla (and any similar 'electricity' co) already benefits from policies geared toward limiting greenhouse gases (and various 'pollutants') emissions, and as those will probably ramp up, will benefit more and more from them.

But there may be more, maybe even much more.

The gorilla in the room is the fact that solar (nor wind) energy cannot deliver 100% of the time.

Any intermittent energy source has to be compensated. On a grid in order to provide the necessary 'baseload'. On most autonomous locations because people don't want or cannot wait for power, they want to switch it ON and immediately enjoy the ride.

At any moment delivering power to a non-producing geographical zone may be done thanks to power produced in other areas, or (this not a XOR!) by storing energy.

From a practical viewpoint a mix of sources (windfarms, geothermal...) and interconnecting grids (forming a continental-scale supergrid) are mandatory, and in many nations there are massive investments towards all this, boosting 'distributed generation' (mainly wind energy, various other forms of renewables, long-distance transmission (see high-voltage, direct current (HVDC)))...

Tesla ability to deploy supercharger networks in many countries ties them with local folks in charge of the gridpower. They know about local energy storage (batteries, which will not be only useful for the car). They also explore distributed generation (Solarglass roof). The necessary smartgrid is mainly tied to operational research and IT (Tesla knows about those)...

In summary Tesla knows about a fair part of many pertinent domains, at worse as an integrator.

Moreover Tesla stands nearby the consumer (mindshare).

Therefore Tesla may become the most prominent ultimate link to the customer when it comes to electric power (which will become more and more pervasive as policies geared toward limiting effects of climate change will phase out fossil fuel), enabling them to rack-up a fair part of the benefits from more and more massive infrastructure-oriented investments.

Re: Tesla Financial Results 2019 Q4

#220
post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno. My bullish view has more to do with Tesla using the vehicle market as an entry point to the broader energy market. If the Tesla cars start throwing off profit and make the company self-sustaining, their vertically-integrated energy thing opens the kind of insanely huge global energy market. They're not just going to eat Ford's lunch - but also Chevron, Saudi Aramco and your local energy company.

I think you've hit the nail on the head for the bullish Tesla case. I don't think there's enough profits in the automotive industry for Tesla to be worth $105-120B. Sure, Toyota is worth more, but basically no one else is and Tesla is a long time from being the next Toyota and I think the odds of them becoming the next Toyota have to be below 50% and are realistically probably more like 5-10%. That's not a dig at Tes…

I agree with the other comment, great post! Tesla is doing amazing work (and I'm a fan, owner, shareholder, yada yada) but the stock price currently is disconnected from fundamentals. That said, it could definitely continue to stay disconnected from fundamentals for a very long time. I believe Tesla will only show modest profits for the near future. They are going to continue reinvesting to push out more product lines (Cybertruck, Semi, ??) and that will take time. Their mission is not to make the most money. Their mission is to accelerate the move to EVs and solar. They'll show some modest profits, hopefully get added to the S&P 500, and maybe the stock will become less volatile.
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