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Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

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Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#211

Post by shkkmo »

HorstG wrote: post #196
onreact wrote: post #90

Yeah, I live in Berlin and we have an increasing number of car free zones here where people can move around without being afraid of getting killed. Even children play outside again in such areas without risking their life. Not to mention the lack of noise, pollution and clogged up space with parking cars. Cafes thrive and people stroll around to spend their time and money. Businesses return from the outskirts etc. It…

This only works in bigger cities, where there is plenty of heavily subsidized public transport such as Berlin. Most smaller towns that went car free killed their businesses or made them move to shopping districts on the outskirts which are still reachable by car. Leading to "dead" inner parts of town and very unhappy citizens. Oh, and skyrocketing rents in the subsidized cities such as Berlin...

Do you have examples of such smaller cities that tried this and failed?

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#212

Post by HorstG »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #200
HorstG wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This only works in bigger cities, where there is plenty of heavily subsidized public transport such as Berlin. Most smaller towns that went car free killed their businesses or made them move to shopping districts on the outskirts which are still reachable by car. Leading to "dead" inner parts of town and very unhappy citizens. Oh, and skyrocketing rents in the subsidized cities such as Berlin...

Well yeah, if you get rid of one form of transport there has to be something sufficient to replace it. They could be subways, busses, bikes (think Denmark), etc.

It isn't that nobody thought of busses or trams. Its just that they are always too sparse, slow, limited in times, capacity, safety and comfort. I believe the break-even is of being able to replace cars is somewhere around a 5min schedule over the day and stations in at most 200m walking distance from everywhere.

Oh, and of course being comparable in speed to at least a bike.

That leaves only subways...

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#213

Post by the8472 »

HorstG wrote: post #196
onreact wrote: post #90

Yeah, I live in Berlin and we have an increasing number of car free zones here where people can move around without being afraid of getting killed. Even children play outside again in such areas without risking their life. Not to mention the lack of noise, pollution and clogged up space with parking cars. Cafes thrive and people stroll around to spend their time and money. Businesses return from the outskirts etc. It…

This only works in bigger cities, where there is plenty of heavily subsidized public transport such as Berlin. Most smaller towns that went car free killed their businesses or made them move to shopping districts on the outskirts which are still reachable by car. Leading to "dead" inner parts of town and very unhappy citizens. Oh, and skyrocketing rents in the subsidized cities such as Berlin...

Many historical inner cities in europe only allow inhabitant and delivery traffic, the latter even limited to certain hours of the day. That applies to smaller ones with <100k inhabitants too.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#214

Post by the8472 »

noobermin wrote: post #208
Balanceinfinity wrote: post #165

Some cities simply can't do this, such as Los Angeles, Dallas, and Atlanta. It's not in their DNA. Things are simply too far apart and the infrastructure couldn't hold it. Other cities are moving toward "no cars" by simply allowing gridlock to make driving a car worthless. I visit NYC very often, and we used to take cabs all the time. Now, we never do, unless we have so much luggage we can't manage - it's a nightmare…

One thing I'll add, the "allowing gridlock" is like "allowing water to fill a container". It more or less is what an incompressible fluid does which is essentially what traffic is. That's why road widenings don't neccessarily decrease congestion, when you take into the non-linear effects (induced demand).

> which is essentially what traffic is

No, not at all. Traffic is quite compressible, it just slows down when you do that. Which is the issue here.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#215

Post by Demoneeri »

HorstG wrote: post #196
onreact wrote: post #90

Yeah, I live in Berlin and we have an increasing number of car free zones here where people can move around without being afraid of getting killed. Even children play outside again in such areas without risking their life. Not to mention the lack of noise, pollution and clogged up space with parking cars. Cafes thrive and people stroll around to spend their time and money. Businesses return from the outskirts etc. It…

This only works in bigger cities, where there is plenty of heavily subsidized public transport such as Berlin. Most smaller towns that went car free killed their businesses or made them move to shopping districts on the outskirts which are still reachable by car. Leading to "dead" inner parts of town and very unhappy citizens. Oh, and skyrocketing rents in the subsidized cities such as Berlin...

It's funny that you are using "heavily subsidized public transport" while using the entierly subsidized road system...

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#216

Post by nunja »

onreact wrote: post #90

Yeah, I live in Berlin and we have an increasing number of car free zones here where people can move around without being afraid of getting killed. Even children play outside again in such areas without risking their life. Not to mention the lack of noise, pollution and clogged up space with parking cars. Cafes thrive and people stroll around to spend their time and money. Businesses return from the outskirts etc. It…

Agreed. Particularly in a city like Berlin where cars are worshiped and being pedestrian makes you a second-class citizen (Cars > Bikes > Pedestrian). Car free zones + speed limits will hopefully make the life better overthere for non-BMW owners.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#217

Post by amanaplanacanal »

shkkmo wrote: post #211
HorstG wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This only works in bigger cities, where there is plenty of heavily subsidized public transport such as Berlin. Most smaller towns that went car free killed their businesses or made them move to shopping districts on the outskirts which are still reachable by car. Leading to "dead" inner parts of town and very unhappy citizens. Oh, and skyrocketing rents in the subsidized cities such as Berlin...

Do you have examples of such smaller cities that tried this and failed?

I was wondering this myself. I’ve never heard of this before.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#218

Post by amanaplanacanal »

tomphoolery wrote: post #188

The only real reason why we don't have car-free side streets in Philly (the ones that are too skinny for a car to get through anyway, forcing people to park on one of the sidewalks) is due to handicapped people becoming immobilized. I like the concept, but I'm curious how it will be implemented whilst also solving the problems for a large percentage of the population...

On the other hand, a third of the population doesn’t drive, either because too young, too old, too poor, too handicapped, etc. Making things more walkable certainly helps that group of people.

Re: Car-Free Streets Will Soon Be the Norm

#220

Post by dkarl »

wcarron wrote: post #104
tomtheelder wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly fine, sometimes a problem. It's pretty much like regular bikes (or cars for that matter): some might not work well if there is significant snow/ice, but then you will just need one that is suitable for those sort of conditions. The scooter companies are putting out very low end models that aren't designed for any sort of adverse conditions, and they are scared of lawsuits/blowback from accidents. This sort of…

I hope e-scooters never make it out of infancy. Bikes are infinitely more practical and capable. They are more stable at all speeds. They can have significantly more cargo carrying capacity. Bikes can be fitted (for the most part) with different tires/wheels to handle adverse conditions more easily than a scooter can. I hope for the infanticide of e-scooter transportation. It's a grotesque, subooptimal solution than…

I agree that bicycles are a superior ride in every way, but a large number of people who don't use bikes do use scooters, and that's enough to make me a fan of them.

Also, speaking as someone who rides a pretty vanilla road bike, the rental e-bikes feel bizarre to me. You call scooters "grotesque" and "suboptimal," but have you ever tried a Jump bike? I can't put my finger on why, but after renting them a few times out of curiosity, I now find myself walking past them and going an extra block to find a scooter if necessary. I prefer my own bicycle over either rental option, but I think rental e-bikes will have to get a lot better before they become as popular as rental scooters. And even my bike doesn't win in all categories. Both rental options (and scooters especially) have an advantage in parking quickly and worry-free at my destination.

In any case, I'm happy to see a variety of options available. I hope rental scooters don't disappear until they are replaced by a better alternative that captures what is attractive about them.

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