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Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#211

Post by Tehdasi »

anotheryou wrote: post #26

The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to see. https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image) Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image) Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans) I made th…

> Google shows whatever you want to see.

Correction, it shows you whatever your government wants/ allows you to see.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#212

Post by philwelch »

input_sh wrote: post #198
Razengan wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anybody thought of asking the people of the disputed region which country they’d like to be a part of?

Nope, you're the first human in history who has thought of that. Sarcasm aside, it's because India knows it'd lose in the referendum. The area is >60% Muslim, India has committed some horrible atrocities in the area, and there's just no way the majority of people there today would vote for India (decades ago, it would have been the opposite). Hence, India will do anything it can for the referendum to just not happen.

Kashmir is also a defensible natural barrier with a lot of mountains. If it's surrendered to Pakistan, that likely makes it harder for India to defend itself. That's not a justification, but it's a reason for India to want to keep it above and beyond the interests of the people-in-Kashmir-who-want-to-stay-part-of-India.

It's kind of similar to Crimea (maintains access to the Black Sea) and, in historical terms, Thrace or East Prussia or Gdansk. In fact, after both World Wars people kind of decided it was easier to relocate people behind whatever borders were strategically agreed upon rather than try and build borders around which country the people already living there wanted to live in.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#213

Post by philwelch »

dmix wrote: post #205
suprfsat wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and 97% of Crimea voted to be part of Russia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum

It's interesting that all of the prior polling by relatively politically neutral organizations (UNDP, Razumkov Centre), even dating back to 2009-2011 before the civil war, showed widespread support for at a minimum secession from Ukraine, including multiple polls showing a majority supporting joining Russia (consistently 65% to 70% in favour) yet the whole idea of Crimeans having a voice in their own statehood was re…

There was "potentially legitimate local support" from Germans living in Danzig and the Czech Sudetenland, too. The overriding principle of international law is that you shouldn't use your army to invade neighboring countries.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#214

Post by hmage »

SebastianKra wrote: post #100
ir77 wrote: post #4

i'm a big fan of apple products and definitely bought into apple's stance -- but now i'm starting to think it's nothing more than a convenient branding campaign that only works in the USA. all these aspects that apple markets in the USA seem to be completely negotiable anywhere in the world, and i wonder how long before they can also become negotiable in the USA. in the USA, because of fairly well established democra…

What you're indirectly saying is: Apple should break the law in countries that don't follow western ideals. This is a slipppery slope. Do you really want companies to fight over what they think is morally right? ...because then get ready for Xiaomi sending the floor plan from your Roomba straight to the chinese government. ...or what if Telegram suddenly started banning gay users because that's obviously wrong and im…

small sidenote -- telegram has nothing to do with russia, the founder had to flee russia to ensure his freedom, and that was _before_ he created telegram.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#215

Post by 4bpp »

treden wrote: post #35
anotheryou wrote: post #26

The sentence about google maps is wrong. Google shows whatever you want to see. https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg Google.com.ua users see a state/province border (top image) Google.de users a disputed international boundary (middle image) Google.ru users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image). (and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans) I made th…

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

What's subjective there, though? If you go to Crimea and commit a crime (heh), you will be caught by Russian police and hauled before a Russian court. If you start in a point on Crimea and walk towards Kiev or vice versa, you will be stopped by military who will check if you are allowed to enter Ukraine or Russia respectively. We conclude that there is an international border between Crimea and Ukraine, and Crimea is under Russian control.

Maps are usually supposed to represent aspects of reality, in particular those relevant to moving around and understanding places (e.g. whether someone will stop and check your passport, or which country's laws you should consult in a particular location to minimise your chances of getting thrown in a dungeon). I get that many people get fuzzy feelings from looking at pictures that look like maps but instead represent a hypothetical reality they would prefer to be in, but there must be a better term for those than "maps".

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#216

Post by underused »

trymas wrote: post #141
Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #18

This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. The only major-league mapping site I know that doesn't do local alterations is OpenStreetMap, and that's because OSM's attitude is "you want the map to show something else? sure, download the raw data and host your own instance".

> This happens pretty much everywhere with every online map. Kashmir, Taiwan, Western Sahara, etc. etc. Apple doing it for one country is not particularly news. Exactly. Couple days ago, I have entered "Palestine" into google maps. It did not highlight any territory and just showed me generic location of Middle East. On mobile it did not relocate map view at all. AFAIK with disputed territories it was always like tha…

Pheasant Island on the river Bidassoa that runs between France and Spain; administration of the island switches every six months. It has since 1659 when Louis xiv and Philip iv signed the peace Treaty of the Pyrenees on the island. It is a different situation IMO for it has clear and settled ownership, that being both. Accessed by boat,and on it some trees and grass; it has little intrinsic value to either sovereign or local population. It is seen as the place were towns share the duty of cutting the grass. It's not a tourist spot of any sort.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#217

Post by davchana »

laretluval wrote: post #103
treden wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This really seems like the Right Way(tm) to approach this because it acknowledges that the google isn't attempting to be an authoritative source for what's really a subjective truth, and it presents the "most true" version of reality based on where you're coming from. And has the added benefit, one imagines, of being even more infuriating to those trying to push their One True Truth down everyone else's throats.

An alternative would be to present the version of borders which is most likely to be relevant for a traveler in terms of border crossings, visa requirements, etc.

Yes, agree, whatever is the situation on ground. If X holds the area, show X as owner.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#218

Post by hmage »

vbezhenar wrote: post #79
kinkrtyavimoodh wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not surprising given that borders are not in any way "reality". They are mutually agreed upon conventions that, well, not everyone agrees upon. It should be no more surprising than having a British English dictionary and an American English dictionary, only with higher stakes.

Many borders are reality. Try to trespass a border and watch who captures you. That's the entity which controls the border.

Depends in which direction.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#219

Post by aspaceman »

femto wrote: post #181
thepete2 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC OSM's attitude is "map what's on the ground", so if people in Crimea believe they are in Russia that's what OSM should show.

To that end, there are proposals for OSM to handle disputed boundaries. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/M... The idea is that OSM captures the multiple views of the boundary in dispute, allowing the user to choose their rendering. Whilst good in theory, it's probably not different to other's approach in practise. Thinking people can choose to see a boundary as disputed, whilst nationalists…

Those "disputed" territories are still information though. In OSM's case, I might want to know which territories are disputed, and in what ways they are. You could give out that info.

Re: Apple changes Crimea map when viewed from Russia

#220

Post by hmage »

mzs wrote: post #3

Anyone know how to check these from different locations? I'm curious about how Transnistria is treated from Moldova, Romania, Ukraine, and Russia. >Google, which also produces a popular Maps app, does not show Crimea as belonging to either Russia or Ukraine on its maps. >However, it uses the Russian spelling of Crimean place names on its maps in Russia, rather than the Ukrainian spelling.

https://i.imgur.com/2HaIhPh.jpg

Ukrainian users see a state/province border (top image)

German users see a disputed international boundary (middle image)

Russian users see an undisputed international boundary and Russian spellings of city names (bottom image).

(and I think there are generally no borders shown in the oceans)

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