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Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

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Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#211

Post by chrisfinazzo »

alasdair_ wrote: post #187
chrisfinazzo wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honest question: Do you think this disadvantages people who have basically followed a traditional path? By that I mean, if you are a finance major from Harvard, Yale, etc who goes to work at a large firm (say Goldman). Is there a chance they might get looked down upon because of the emphasis on the "whole person" or finding "interesting" candidates. Poets & Quants MBA odds doesn't talk about those kids, yet they will…

>Is there a chance they might get looked down upon because of the emphasis on the "whole person" or finding "interesting" candidates. There is a deliberate admissions emphasis on ensuring the class is as diverse (in terms of viewpoint and experience) as possible. An MBA class full of only people with finance degrees would be a poor experience for everyone.

No question that people who are in that situation need to have some other defining traits that an admissions committee might find attractive, but I'm not sure if that sends a broad signal to people like, 'Don't pursue finance, we have enough of those people already'.

Do any of these articles track what effect this kind of messaging has had on the number of MBA's choosing specific concentrations?

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#212

Post by thehappypm »

aoveri wrote: post #50

Having started my own company and done everything from doing coffee runs for my team to writing investment briefs, I'm not sure what an MBA would teach me? Not being snarky, genuinely curious as to what benefit I could derive as I've always seen as something that I'd eventually pursue.

For my wife, who works in sales, the value in business school was rounding out her knowledge. She went part-time, so it was all about the content, not about networking quite so much. It also was an order of magnitude less expensive with no (financial) opportunity cost.

Yes, you learn a ton on the job. On-the-job learning also leaves gaps and blind spots; sometimes even an excellent working knowledge has gaps that you don't even know exist until you crack open a textbook. The MBA provides structure, motivation, discussion, teaching resources, access to documents you otherwise wouldn't, but perhaps most importantly, it forces you to deep-dive on topics that maybe you haven't yet encountered or frankly didn't feel interested in.

At least for part-time, I wouldn't go in expecting it to change your life; but it is certainly an education, and one that's directly applicable to many aspects of a career. There's no way you'll learn nothing.

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#213

Post by thehappypm »

pastor_elm wrote: post #64
aoveri wrote: post #50

Having started my own company and done everything from doing coffee runs for my team to writing investment briefs, I'm not sure what an MBA would teach me? Not being snarky, genuinely curious as to what benefit I could derive as I've always seen as something that I'd eventually pursue.

MBAs are a gatekeeping mechanism for the rich

This is pretty damn false. Most state schools offer online MBAs for extremely affordable tuition rates.

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#214

Post by thawaway1837 »

commandlinefan wrote: post #168
ucha wrote: post #135

It seems that almost all the comments are about the downfall of MBAs. The actual article - not the title - says applications rose in Europe, China and quite dramatically in Canada. If applications rise by 9% in Canada while they decrease by 9% in the US, it's quite a good argument for the thesis of the author which is that immigration restrictions are responsible. It used to be easy to get an MBA in the US then get a…

Well, I know this sort of sentiment is usually dismissed as xenophobia but… where’s the evidence that this is a bad thing _for U.S. citizens_?

The fact that international immigrants are significantly greater contributors to the US economy than US citizens? And if you restrict to those who are coming here for higher ed, the difference is likely to be much much more stark.

And it’s obvious why immigrants would be greater contributors, especially those in higher ed, without having to resort to demographic analysis.

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#215

Post by thawaway1837 »

ethbro wrote: post #110
Scoundreller wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doing a masters (or undergrad) in Canada is the backdoor to immigration. Once you graduate, you get an open work permit equal to the length of your program and can then apply for Permanent Residency through “Express Entry” based on your advanced degree and local experience. The desperation for local experience can really suppress wages in some fields. And you don’t need to prove that you’re not taking a position or a…

> The desperation for local experience can really suppress wages in some fields. Isn't that good for the Canadian economy too? I'm sure it's not great for Canadians looking for a job, but access to high-quality talent at below-market rates seems like it would be win/win.

Who has more immigrarion? The US or Canada? Who has a better economy? Who pays higher wages?

More specifically, when comparing immigrants (and more relevant to this discussion, immigrants coming for higher ed) who has a greater income and who is a greater contributor?

All those numbers are significantly in favor of the immigrants in the country.

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#216

Post by jayalpha »

bedhead wrote: post #40

I have an MBA from on of these schools and I can tell you that it's virtually worthless. I went at night because my boss made me and paid for it. (Yes, doing classes from 6-9pm a couple nights per week for two years was miserable) People who quit their jobs and forgo income and instead take on debt to go full-time are insane, the only point is to basically relive college and party 4-5 nights/week. Frankly, I don't se…

"Frankly, I don't see the point of any post-graduate degree in something that's neither specific nor complex."

This is a useless metric. I have a PhD in something that is specific and complex and never could find a job.

MBA is generic. It may not pay off but you can play in many fields.

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#217

Post by sedachv »

airstrike wrote: post #200
sedachv wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the GMAT is a tough exam It might work ok as a way to filter out people who had a poor quality undergraduate education, but it is not a tough exam. I got a 700-something score (95th percentile) in 2011 on my first try with less than 6 hours of preparation. The math portion of the GMAT was primarily about doing mental arithmetic, and did not involve any mathematical concepts past the middle school level. The languag…

Congrats, you're one of the smart people in the world. Managers don't really need a whole lot more than what's tested on the GMAT, math-wise. They need to be able to interpret business questions, have decent intuition and do relatively simple math relatively quickly. As far as standardized exams go, the GMAT is rather challenging given the time constraint and the fact that the exam adjusts to match your skill level w…

My comment might have come across as bragging. What I should have stated explicitly is that, being a typical HN poster, my experience shows that the GMAT would not be a difficult exam for most HN readers.

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#218

Post by echelon »

shantly wrote: post #158
thrav wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right network is worth its weight in gold. Stanford or Cal MBA gives you access to all the right people. A huge contingent of other Bay Area high achievers to mix and mingle and start companies with and take investments from. MBA from the University of Alabama would probably not do much for you in the Bay, but could be 10x as valuable as Cal in Atlanta or Birmingham.

There's a certain career path that seems to start with a top-tier MBA, and by one's 30s has one running a VC backed company as CEO (you have 40 employees and one of them is your executive assistant—can't let your CEO job take up your entire work day like it's a real job, after all!), sitting on the board of a couple others, "advisor" positions with a startup or two or a fund, self-promoting on social media constantly…

Life is a rich gradient landscape.

Some paths are lower energy to climb than others.

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#219

Post by vmurthy »

appleiigs wrote: post #201
suyash wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

90% Marketing, 10% Misc - one could hire an marketing expert or learn on their own, no need for MBA or YC for that.

YC Startup School maybe is 90% marketing. But in business school, you learn more accounting, business law, economics, operations management, decision-making. And more thorough coverage of finance instead Series ABCs.

I got something really more valuable beyond these things. Observing how political organizations get. I was a programmer for 9 years before joining an "Elite" MBA program in India and the level of politicking among a batch of 75 people was mind boggling. I see that now in my current role at work and am better prepared.

Re: Elite MBA Programs Report Steep Drop in Applications

#220

Post by laurentl »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #123
laurentl wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it was the first exercise we did in my EMBA finance class :D Even with an EMBA, which happens later in a career, the NPV is quite positive.

Did you use a bell curve to figure out if it's worth it -- on average -- or did you use a madelbrot curve? Unless you go to an elite school, and the tuition is cheaper than anywhere I'm aware of, you're either 1) banking on being on the good side of the curve, 2) imagining there's a gaussian distribution to salaries (which there isn't), 3) enrolled somewhere very elite or incredibly cheap, or 4) vastly underestimatin…

Nothing that fancy, we just looked at the average case using a conservative estimate of salary increase after an MBA (something like + 30% 3 years after, so way below what the FT figures show for instance), and a conservative starting salary.

Note that this was an executive MBA, so the base assumptions are a little different; in particular, attendees have a pretty good idea of what they're worth on the market and the effect of the EMBA is pretty well quantified: most EMBA participants change jobs/companies after the program, usually with a nice salary bump (although of course signing up for an EMBA in the first place is a good indication that you're willing to invest in your career, so at least part of that progress would have happened in some way or another even without the EMBA).

In my personal case, the salary increase is close to 100% 5 years after enrollment - so the investment was well worth it.

To answer the rest of your questions, the program was in the FT top 10 (now at #12 or so) and tuition was around 50k€. Yay for European business schools :D

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