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Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

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Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#211

Post by Mirioron »

ineedasername wrote: post #132
greggman2 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what Libra's plans are but couldn't Facebook make their own Paypal? What would really be the difference? I can hold a balance at Paypal. I can pay others and others can pay me. The "crypto" part seems like an implementation detail but otherwise irrelevant. Note: I'm not saying Facebook should be allowed to make their own Paypal. I'm just curious other than "Facebook scary because big" what other reason w…

Apple and Google are still dealing with merchant fees. So is PayPal for many transactions. A PayPal style system might work, but it is only low-cost low-friction (the main appeal for crypto) for the transactions that occur completely within it's own ecosystem. And they don't call it a currency, so they dodge some issues there. Paypal also dodges issues of "being a bank" because funds equivalent to customer balances a…

So, what stops Facebook from trying to push Libra everywhere and then bowing out in the countries it doesn't take hold in? I doubt that many developing countries would be able to shut the door on them. It might even be a boon for those developing countries, because it could enable trade between them without some heavy fees in converting currency.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#212

Post by Mirioron »

nikanj wrote: post #22
vertex-four wrote: post #20

If Facebook attempts to become a money transfer service or bank without the required licensing, they will have their offices raided and their doors locked on them. This is something Governments don't tend to mess around with.

FB is banking (pun unnintended) on the regulators and goverments being absolutely useless lately. Both AirBnB and Uber built empires on ”What if we just ignore the rules”

FB is going to find useless regulators and governments though. FB is a global company. What's the chance that every country in the world is on top of their game?

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#213

Post by Mirioron »

speedplane wrote: post #129
xlc0212 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I don’t understand is, the whole point of using blockchain technology is it doesn’t matter who creates it, as long as the code does what it intend to do, there are no trust needed. (Assuming Libra eventually actually become a decentralized network)

> the whole point of using blockchain technology is it doesn’t matter who creates it, as long as the code does what it intend to do, there are no trust needed That may have been the original point of blockchain, but control over money is still a pretty political issue. Accordingly, anyone who creates or transacts currency, regardless if done by fiat or mathematics, will necessarily wade into local political and socia…

>It's yet another example of tech's beautifully orchestrated high-minded ideals, that come crashing down when they meet real power and reality.

My worry is that this teaches tech companies even more that they should get into politics, because that is the only way to enact their vision.

I like the idea that money transfers shouldn't cost essentially anything and should be instant. I think it's a shame that we don't already have that, but I'm just worried that this will give too much power to companies like FB.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#214

Post by e12e »

goatinaboat wrote: post #154
csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

it'll be a success Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. If Libra ignored these rules, they'll put these guys (or at least a part of their offerings) out of business This is called money laundering, people go to jail for it.

> Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them.

This seems very likely to happen.

> One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead.

This seems sadly very unlikely to follow. I doubt even a "juvenile starved to death"- or "kid stranded because bus ticket purchase was denied"-story would put a dent in this project.

Don't get me wrong, I think it should, I just don't think it very likely.

With 1 billion users, a serious bug/pattern that affects 0.1% of the users - harms a 100 000 people.

But their voices still drown in the crowd, as far as I can tell.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#215

Post by tjpnz »

csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

>+ Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra.

They could try but they'll be doing so in the face of laws designed to combat money laundering and funding of terrorist organisations. This isn't remotely on the same level as what AirBnB were doing when they decided to flout local laws around rental properties.

>I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization that these institutions "added value" is navigating the regulations/laws of the different countries.

That's what will likely make Libra a non-starter in most countries. Financial institutions have already invested significantly to ensure their business practices are compliant with both local and international law. They won't allow Facebook to start undermining that.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#216

Post by e12e »

Mirioron wrote: post #204
goatinaboat wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it'll be a success Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. If Libra ignored these rules, they'll put these guys (or at least a part of their offerings) out of business This is called money laundering, people go to jail for it.

> Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. Imagine being unable to buy food because (an algorithm at) Visa or MasterCard decided that you violated their (community) standards. Oh wait, we don't have to imagine anything, because that's the world we already liv…

You're not in general paid in "visa". You either have a bank account and can withdraw cash, or you can get paid in cash. Now,if you're paid into your libra account (or indeed PayPal account, Apple pay, Google whatever) - then you're indeed at the whim of those companies use policies.

Visa won't stop your card over a nude Pic on Facebook - but Facebook might suspend your account and your libra over it.

Note that for example in Norway (probably Europe?) every card transaction is run through a check for money laundering and criminal/suspicious activity in real-time.

You touch your card, central authority can decline the transaction. (I have a friend that used to work on this system, implementing rules).

But they don't check your tweet history (although, I'm sure the intelligence services do, and I assume they have a secret, quasi-legal "terrorist" watch list that probably is linked to this system somehow).

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#217

Post by RaceWon »

ineedasername wrote: post #90
csomar wrote: post #12

Here are some wild predictions I'm making + Many (or potentially all of the backers except Facebook) will withdraw from the alliance. + Facebook/Zuckerberg will defy the gov.s and launch Libra. + Libra might not dominate the world, but it'll be a success (at least a niche success) and it'll eat up some of the marketshare of these financial institutions. I think Zuckerberg has come (or already know) to the realization…

">If Libra ignored these rules..." This isn't like Uber silently encroaching on a city's taxi medallion laws with grey-area definitions of "taxi" and "employee". Facebook cannot do something like this without attracting scrutiny at every stage, and as we saw with Robinhood, the financial regulation systems are relatively quick to act. Especially if they "defy govs", then those government's will have every reason to c…

> This is one area where Facebook will need to finesse their way through

Governments and banks are hand in glove. FB does not have an army, nor more Lawyers than the US GovernMint (to name just one). Oh yeah, and if you don't believe almost every US news source is GovernMint controlled--I just have no words to describe your "optimism."

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#219

Post by tjpnz »

tim333 wrote: post #189
aclsid wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The licensing is not the issue. It is the middleman charging fees for simple transactions that they will totally skip. Building that before was hard but the blockchain solved that

As far as I can see sending money with Libra would be quite similar to sending money with say Ethereum. Transfering ETH from one wallet to another is semi anonymous and cheap, like one US cent. However converting fiat to ETH or back at the other end costs in the tens of dollars and requires things like being videoed holding your passport for KYC and AML. It tends to take a few days to be approved. I think the KYC pro…

>Facebook may have an advantage on KYC as it already knows it's clients through their facebook activity and so may be able to get the costs lower which could be a competitive advantage there.

What Facebook might know about someone is completely worthless when it comes to KYC. In the country I live there are even some government issued identity documents that won't cut it.

Re: Paypal Withdraws from Facebook's Libra Cryptocurrency

#220

Post by z3c0 »

AngryData wrote: post #179
goatinaboat wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it'll be a success Imagine being unable to buy food because an algorithm determined that “you violated our community standards” and there’s no way to contact them. One or two stories like that will kill Libra stone dead. If Libra ignored these rules, they'll put these guys (or at least a part of their offerings) out of business This is called money laundering, people go to jail for it.

Ive had similar thoughts about paypal for a long time after they randomly shut down one of my accounts for unspecified suspicious activity and was doing everything possible to not deal with it and fix their mistake. And I know I wasn't the only one either. And yet it still survives to this day.

What's more, I know plenty of people who hold unsavory views of PayPal... but still use Venmo.

I'm one of them.

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