Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007) • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#211

Post by cousin_it » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 9:50 AM UTC

4bpp wrote: post #95

michannne wrote: post #38

It seems this thread and others like it has fueled a controversial honeypot, as some users are mass-downvoting comments that are perfectly in line with the content posted, simply because they stand for or against ousting Stallman, and others are doing the opposite -- mass upvoting comments that align with their predisposed view of the situation. I'd like to take sometime however to reiterate that freedom applies to a…

But consider the possibility that this might be perfectly rational behaviour for people who care about some side of the cause (even if it comes at the expense of HN as a forum): the victory condition for any belief is to be so universally accepted that its negation can not be expressed in polite company. If you come into a HN thread believing X and then see that every post stating X got downvoted into oblivion, maybe…

> the victory condition for any belief is to be so universally accepted that its negation can not be expressed in polite company

That's the victory condition for a mind virus. I hope that my beliefs (like the belief in free speech) aren't mind viruses and don't have that as a victory condition.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#212

Post by diffeomorphism » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 9:50 AM UTC

quickthrower2 wrote: post #31

scarejunba wrote: post #15

There's also the beauty in the point of Free Software: it's for freedom. This means it's okay that others profit. It's about you having power. That means you have the power to profit too. All you gotta share is the code for what you distribute. I like free software not because no one is making money. I like people making money. I like it because I can change it. That's important and everyone who gets upset simply bec…

What I could never get my head around when reading about free software is how can people, especially individuals or small companies make money making free software. Sure you can sell it but then the buyer is free to sell it for half the price. One way is if the software is a marketing tool for selling something else. Then people sharing or using it is good for marketing the other service. Another way is if the produc…

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.iiordanov....

GPL licensed, basically identical to the "non-pro" version, $5. I don't know how well that works out for them, but I think it is a model worth supporting.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#213

Post by lostjohnny » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 9:50 AM UTC

4bpp wrote: post #49

Frondo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The complaints about stallman aren't a matter of thoughtcrime, they're a matter of entirely inappropriate behavior, not just once but repeatedly, over the course of decades. This was the one that disturbed me the most: "Going to an RMS talk in the early 90s and meeting with him in person was among the worst of my experienced - I was fifteen, still obviously underage, and skipping gym class to hear him speak at a prof…

It's notable that all of these anecdotes are from back in the '90s and before; since I assume Stallman's accusers dug around very hard for material and this is the best they could find, it stands to reason that he probably has long since improved in that regard. Moreover, the same cluster of people among others has seriously been arguing ( https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... ) that a mattr…

fun fact: Selam G. the author of the post on medium builds weapons for the US defense department.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#214

Post by krapp » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 9:50 AM UTC

marijn wrote: post #196

hdfbdtbcdg wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is another large part of the community that wants no part in the community as a result of events like this. I guess we will end up with two communities one focused on software the other focused on social justice (wokeware). It looks like the social justice community will get the code and trademarks. Fortunately thanks to RMS the code is available to fork. I guess things aren't organised yet but I and others I h…

The assumption that those who care about treating others decently can not at the same time be good technologists speaks volumes.

People like RMS and Linus Torvalds are responsible for normalizing the premise that to be a good hacker you can't care about things like treating other people decently - that's just giving in to politically correct wrongthink from SJWs and normie scum after all.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#215

Post by lostjohnny » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 9:53 AM UTC

hdfbdtbcdg wrote: post #197

4bpp wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's notable that all of these anecdotes are from back in the '90s and before; since I assume Stallman's accusers dug around very hard for material and this is the best they could find, it stands to reason that he probably has long since improved in that regard. Moreover, the same cluster of people among others has seriously been arguing ( https://medium.com/@selamie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix... ) that a mattr…

All sensible senior academics keep their doors open. It is one way to avoid exactly these sorts of accusations!

if you can be accused for keeping a door closed, US society is way more fucked up than I thought and these people are much more scary than italian mafia.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#216

Post by lostjohnny » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 9:55 AM UTC

gwd wrote: post #208

stelonix wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, I've been thinking about this myself: whether a new foundation or movement will be created around RMS and without the stigmas that allow people to be "cancelled" over their thoughts or opinions. I have to say, the FSF without RMS simply makes no sense. It's one of those institutions where more than 51% of its effectiveness came from a single person. I firmly believe a "fork" for the FSF is coming soon.

> I have to say, the FSF without RMS simply makes no sense. It's one of those institutions where more than 51% of its effectiveness came from a single person. If that's true, then Stallman has completely failed as a leader. There are 7 billion people in the world; if after 40 years there is nobody of similar caliber at the FSF, it is because he has either not attracted them, not trained them, or has driven them away.…

> If that's true, then Stallman has completely failed as a leader

He's been under constant attack for the past 40 years.

Nobody wants to be friend with the smart friend who's also unpopular.

And that's what he failed, he trusted people would be decent.

They are not.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#217

Post by pessimizer » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 9:56 AM UTC

varjag wrote: post #203

cbanek wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I believe free software will be recognised as one of the paradigmatic changes in how science itself is done. I think we're already there. I'm an astronomer, and we (and many others) are already building platforms with software like Jupyter, dask, holoviews, etc. While RMS may have started with a great idea, I'm not sure he's super influential in actually making progress and writing software. If anything, the idea t…

> While RMS may have started with a great idea, I'm not sure he's super influential in actually making progress and writing software. I had to re-read this to be sure it's not sarcasm. RMS has some of the largest footprints in software among the living people. How can one hold an opinion about his contribution and not be aware of that?

Maybe its a sign of your greatness when people think your contribution to the world somehow arose spontaneously, like a hurricane.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#218

Post by michaelmrose » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 9:57 AM UTC

marijn wrote: post #157

sn41 wrote: post #7

In the years to come, I believe free software will be recognised as one of the paradigmatic changes in how science itself is done. Now chemists and biologists have started talking about making data openly available and so forth. It's a shame that RMS has to spout forth on every issue, and in the current climate of outrage, science may have lost an important transformational voice. I think as a society, we need to cal…

He wasn't blacklisted for committing thought crime. The dumb Epstein email triggered a reevaluation of his consistent creepy and inappropriate behavior against current community standards, which resulted in a large part of the community deciding they didn't want anything to do with him anymore. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from social consequences.

By which you mean a bunch of Twitter nobodies and one somebody who happens to speak for the gnome project.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#219

Post by pessimizer » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 10:00 AM UTC

bartread wrote: post #140

tzs wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The four freedoms are truly revolutionary and have grown on me over the years. If he had been a bit more focussed and perhaps even a little pragmatic it wouldn't be hard to view him as a Steve Jobs or Bill Gates like figure. If he had been a lot more pragmatic, he probably could have put the whole free software thing on hold for 20 years, and been one of the early microcomputer billionaires either alongside Jobs an…

No. In the intervening years somebody else would have done substantially what RMS did: it's not like he's the only hacker of his era who believes software should be free. There's no guarantee he would have been successful in business and, even if he was, he would have undermined his moral authority on free software. People don't in general have serious doubts about RMS's motivations even if they don't agree with him…

> In the intervening years somebody else would have done substantially what RMS did

There's no reason to believe this.

Re: Why Open Source Misses the Point of Free Software (2007)

#220

Post by dspillett » Tue, Sep 24, 2019, 10:01 AM UTC

inimino wrote: post #85

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you actually kidding me? As you are nearing adulthood as a teenager, you are sometimes able to sneak into adult spaces and experience a bit of adult off-color talk. Not everything is guarded by a fence, but maybe more tech events should be if the alternative is catering to child sensitivities. In any case, these comments would not even be PG-13 in a Disney movie. Also, if the idea is to protect under-18s from any…

> incredibly sheltered. > privileged I'm coming to realize more and more—those aren't the same thing.

The latter often results in the former, and sometimes the former illicits expectations of the latter in the sheltered, so there is significant coincidence of the two, but no they are certainly not the same nor do they necessarily imply each other.