How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls • Hacker News Board

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#211

Post by pier25 » Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 7:52 PM UTC

esmi wrote: post #197

mwnivek wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple seems to balance security and freedom in MacOS, by asking if you are sure you want to uninstall unidentified software, outside of the Mac App Store [1]. Why can't they offer that same balance in iOS? Imagine how different the MacOS experience would be (particularly for small developers) if every piece of software had to be installed through the Mac App Store. [1] https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/open-a-…

I think the security expectations for those two platforms are very different, and that's why Apple balances them differently. MacOS gives up a lot of security for those extra abilities, and on MacOS I don't feel like I ever really had security. For example, I begrudgingly run shell injection attacks on myself every time I download some large codebase, which I am never going to review all of, or run brew, etc. It has…

> I think the security expectations for those two platforms are very different, and that's why Apple balances them differently.

Can you elaborate?

Are you arguing that macOS users need less security than iOS users?

> It has been that way since the very beginning. Not so with iOS.

I have to say that "it's this way because it has always been this way" is a very poor argument.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#212

Post by pier25 » Wed, Sep 11, 2019, 8:07 PM UTC

esmi wrote: post #181

pier25 wrote: post #125

It's fine, it's their App Store and they can do whatever they want IMO. What's not fine is not being able to install a third party App Store with different policies so that users can choose whatever they prefer.

Just out of curiosity, how do you imagine that would work in the real world? Apple's main thing is security, and one important aspect of how they achieve it is by only allowing signed code, which Apple also does some basic tests on, to be installed on the device. Many think this is a valuable service. In the third party App Store scenario, does the developer still submit an app to Apple for approval? How does Apple t…

Personally, I think the best outcome for everyone would be if Apple relaxed the restrictions on the App Store. Eg: not blocking an app update because they do not like the screenshots (I have personally suffered from this), letting third party browser engines (all iOS browsers use Safari web views), or even allowing apps that resemble their own apps (see what happened with Windmill recently because it competed with TestFlight).

That said, I would only agree (ideologically speaking) to Apple being as unreasonable as they are now if they allowed third party stores and let users chose which store they prefer. I really don't know how that would work but it would not be my first option.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#213

Post by BuckRogers » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 7:47 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #151

ceejayoz wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What if I say that Apple has 100% monopoly on the iOS? That'd be a silly argument. By that logic, Ford has a 100% monopoly on F-150s. > why not 50% + 1 Because the "mono" in monopoly means "one", not "two". You can accurately say that Apple and Google enjoy an oligopoly in the mobile operating system market. You cannot reasonably say either one holds a monopoly.

That'd be a silly argument. By that logic, Ford has a 100% monopoly on F-150s. It's a very appropriate argument, and Ford does have a monopoly on F-150's. As I've noted elsewhere, monopolies are not by themselves illegal. The trucks are like the iPhone, so in this context we would be talking about truck parts (i.e., apps). Ford doesn't restrict or attempt to control the market for F-150 parts. If you damage your car,…

I agree that it's a silly argument. F150s are not a market, that's one product. The truck market is a market.

Ford may have a "monopoly" on F150s, just as I have a monopoly on ownership on the house I live in. That's not a market, it's a product.

Apple isn't anywhere near a monopoly in the app market, there are alternative places to sell your apps other than their store.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#214

Post by BuckRogers » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 7:49 PM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #137

ceejayoz wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have to have a dominant position to abuse it. You can quibble over whether 80% or 90% is a monopoly, but 40% clearly isn't one.

You have to have a dominant position to abuse it. This is true. But antitrust law doesn't require that you have a mnonopoly or a dominant market position. It's simply that the analysis is more complex and significantly more contextual if you don't have a dominant market position.

This is because antitrust laws are not specific to solving the problem of monopolies. Your point is an obvious one and borders on argumentative without a point.

Re: How Apple's Apps Topped Rivals in the App Store It Controls

#215

Post by simion314 » Fri, Sep 13, 2019, 9:08 PM UTC

BuckRogers wrote: post #213

gamblor956 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That'd be a silly argument. By that logic, Ford has a 100% monopoly on F-150s. It's a very appropriate argument, and Ford does have a monopoly on F-150's. As I've noted elsewhere, monopolies are not by themselves illegal. The trucks are like the iPhone, so in this context we would be talking about truck parts (i.e., apps). Ford doesn't restrict or attempt to control the market for F-150 parts. If you damage your car,…

I agree that it's a silly argument. F150s are not a market, that's one product. The truck market is a market. Ford may have a "monopoly" on F150s, just as I have a monopoly on ownership on the house I live in. That's not a market, it's a product. Apple isn't anywhere near a monopoly in the app market, there are alternative places to sell your apps other than their store.

What are the alternatives?

Since you all like car analogies, then you would have only 2 car producers Ford and Toyota, Ford does work cars and Toyota city cars, so your choices are limited to the extreme. Then say you buy a Ford and want to put a cat sticker on your car, you can't do it yourself and you go to a Frod store, then when you want to buy the cat sticker the store people direct you to buy dog stickers made by Ford, you insist you don't want the Ford sticker but a cat sticker so they send you to search in the back where the lights are dim because only Ford products get illuminated and put n the front of the store.

The people that make stickers don't like it at all when you want to buy a cat stickers but Ford are not showing them to you but instead pushing you to get the dog ones made by them. Then you ask some respect from Ford and they say if you don't like it don't use it you have so many choices (in fact just 1),