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CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

techcrunch.com

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Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#211

Post by v64 »

It's my opinion that the media has been irresponsible about its reporting on this issue, wildly jumping to conclusions before any actual facts have been established. Some of the most egregious reporting I've seen conflates vaping from e-cigarettes with dry plant vaping, which is an entirely different process.

Furthermore, vaping in this form has existed for over a decade, so if any of the health problems were related to the process itself and not contaminated cartridges, these issues would have already arisen. However, the media continues to report as if it's a fact that vaping is dangerous.

Reports are also coming out that users who originally stated their ailments came from nicotine cartridges are admitting they were actually using THC cartridges and lied because they feared the legal repercussions of admitting they were using illegal substances. I've yet to see a credible report linking a serious ailment to nicotine vaping.

As a vape user myself, there's no doubt in my mind that inhaling substances into the lungs may cause serious side effects in some individuals. But until the facts are released by the CDC and other medical authorities as to what the primary cause of these ailments are, the media needs to cease this fear mongering clickbait FUD.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#212

Post by mistermann »

zelon88 wrote: post #172
zelienople wrote: post #152

Several things have failed to show up in the comments that might illuminate this discussion. (1) The condition is called lipoid pneumonia, which comes from inhaling organic fats and oils. (2) The CDC reports and early studies indicate that the condition has appeared in some people who only vaped with nicotine in glycerol (which is also sometimes called glycerin or glycerine). (3) Glycerol (the Christmas molecule--HO…

> (3) The CDC reports and early studies indicate that the condition has appeared in some people who only vaped with nicotine in glycerol (which is also sometimes called glycerin or glycerine). Are you sure? The article states ... "...most of the afflicted users reported using THC exclusively or as well as nicotine."

The information and wording used in these reports seems designed to maximize fear, but more importantly, maximize uncertainty, confusion, and speculative discussion.

From the TechCrunch article:

> One trend worth noting, however, is that very few of the cases involve only nicotine products

You'd have to read these articles very carefully to discern that.

> ...most of the afflicted users reported using THC exclusively or as well as nicotine.

Ditto.

If this is such a serious public health risk (as it seems to be, with more than one death involved so far), why the weasely language, why is this being communicated exclusively through the use of ambiguous terms like "some", "most", "associated with", etc?

> While many of the patients, but not all, reported recent use of THC-containing products, some reported using both THC- and nicotine-containing products. A smaller group reported using nicotine only.

"A smaller group reported using nicotine only" - how much smaller? Technically speaking, two people is a group, and is smaller than say 400.

Every official news release I've read on this (with the exception of one or more from particular state-level medical organizations) is written in this manner, a maximization of uncertainty and confusion, but with every single sentence being technically correct if taken literally as written. This is plausible deniability done right.

Why don't they simply publish a concise table of data that unambiguously states the actual numbers that they have in their possession (otherwise, how would they make these statements), but instead choose to take the far more laborious approach of describing that data, and in unclear and extremely ambiguous terms?

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#213

Post by robocat »

ineedasername wrote: post #188
robocat wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (11) If the early reports are correct that lipoid pneumonia is occurring in vapers who have only used nicotine in glycerol with no flavoring or impurities, then we must ask the question: Is glycerol being converted to fatty acids in lung cells by NAD-mediated enzymatic conversion or acid-catalyzed esterification in the presence of high CO2 levels and acidity? How about also asking another question: do some people u…

I think that needs to be weighed against the fact that it seems unlikely 1) everyone would lie and 2) they would lie regarding a health issue that has killed people, meaning they have a strong interest in doctors having accurate information so it doesn't kill them too

> it seems unlikely 1) everyone would lie

From the article "One trend worth noting, however, is that very few of the cases involve only nicotine products; most of the afflicted users reported using THC exclusively or as well as nicotine."

I struggle to see why GP is completely ignoring this and is insinuating that normal nicotine vaping is dangerous. It is fabulously unlikely we have only just "discovered" this.

Instead, something has changed, and that has been detected.

I worry because there seems to be a very strong media campaign of "don't vape nicotine", when the facts I have read say "don't vape THC carts". I imagine that there is an argument that it is safer to be over-cautious, but it also discourages smokers from converting to vaping. Vaping is not healthy, but it seems to be far healthier than smoking. I have very clearly seen the health positives of vaping within my own social circle. Maybe there is no disinformation campaign, but something seems majorly weird about this topic.

Disclaimer: never smoked nor vaped.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#214

Post by SiempreViernes »

zelon88 wrote: post #172
zelienople wrote: post #152

Several things have failed to show up in the comments that might illuminate this discussion. (1) The condition is called lipoid pneumonia, which comes from inhaling organic fats and oils. (2) The CDC reports and early studies indicate that the condition has appeared in some people who only vaped with nicotine in glycerol (which is also sometimes called glycerin or glycerine). (3) Glycerol (the Christmas molecule--HO…

> (3) The CDC reports and early studies indicate that the condition has appeared in some people who only vaped with nicotine in glycerol (which is also sometimes called glycerin or glycerine). Are you sure? The article states ... "...most of the afflicted users reported using THC exclusively or as well as nicotine."

> has appeared in some people who only vaped with nicotine in glycerol

> most of the afflicted users reported using THC exclusively or as well as nicotine

"Some" being (in a loose sense) the complement of "most", I see no contradiction.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#215

Post by freeone3000 »

v64 wrote: post #211

It's my opinion that the media has been irresponsible about its reporting on this issue, wildly jumping to conclusions before any actual facts have been established. Some of the most egregious reporting I've seen conflates vaping from e-cigarettes with dry plant vaping, which is an entirely different process. Furthermore, vaping in this form has existed for over a decade, so if any of the health problems were related…

So: there's an unknown number of contaminated liquid vape cartridges, all of which so far were THC? And since the substance is illegal it's going to be impossible to do a recall. This is a major health risk, and I wouldn't vape liquid THC for the near future.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#217

Post by v64 »

freeone3000 wrote: post #215
v64 wrote: post #211

It's my opinion that the media has been irresponsible about its reporting on this issue, wildly jumping to conclusions before any actual facts have been established. Some of the most egregious reporting I've seen conflates vaping from e-cigarettes with dry plant vaping, which is an entirely different process. Furthermore, vaping in this form has existed for over a decade, so if any of the health problems were related…

So: there's an unknown number of contaminated liquid vape cartridges, all of which so far were THC? And since the substance is illegal it's going to be impossible to do a recall. This is a major health risk, and I wouldn't vape liquid THC for the near future.

My understanding of the issue is that the THC cartridges causing these problems are all done by unregulated black market producers. THC cartridges have been available for years in a number of legal states and there have been no reported issues with those cartridges purchased from licensed dispensaries. I've lived in legal and illegal states, and I would not buy or use black market cartridges. To further conflate things, many black market cartridges steal the branding of legitimate cartridges in order to pass themselves off as authentic.

Individuals can and should make their own personal decisions regarding their usage. My issue is with the media's inaccurate reporting causing people to make these decisions based on incorrect data. For instance, you have people who nicotine vape who are now concerned about their usage, despite the fact there's been no conclusive evidence linking these ailments to nicotine cartridges.

Conspiratorially, I have a feeling there are many corporate players who would benefit from and encourage this kind of fear mongering, but that is my own personal baseless speculation.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#218

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

I will admit that I am a little confused about all this. To the best of my understanding, LD50 for nicotine is appx. 13 mg and nicotine poisoning can cause all the issues listed ( including death ). The difference appears to be ease of passing those tresholds. I get that vapers add all sorts of enhancers, but why THC seems like an odd strawman to use here.

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#219

Post by ghostbrainalpha »

katet wrote: post #205

Screw it, let's wade into this one briefly (because I've searched and nobody has mentioned this as far as I can see): I currently live in South East Asia, the land of palm-oil-plantations-as-far-as-you-can-see, and it's that time of year again: slash and burn. There is so much particulate matter in the air, that you can see the street lights illuminating it, you can't see islands from the shoreline, and schools will…

Do you wear a mask outdoors for your commute?

Re: CDC says stop vaping as mystery lung condition spreads

#220

Post by umvi »

ChrisLTD wrote: post #198
umvi wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ironically, you call out 5 vaping deaths as being high hanging fruit implying that mass shootings are low hanging fruit. In reality, mass shootings are exactly them same (64 people have died this year from mass shootings so far). Meanwhile there's tons of real low hanging fruit with thousands and tens of thousands of lives at stake that never get any national dialogue at all because it's not outrageous, controversial…

In 2017, nearly 40,000 people died from gun violence in the United States. The mass shootings are emblematic of a larger and uniquely American problem. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/18/us/gun-deaths.html

Right but... tackling "gun deaths" and tackling specifically mass shootings are two completely different problems, and it seems like gun control proposals are always aimed at preventing specifically mass shootings which, as I've said, is high hanging fruit.

If you are looking to prevent gun suicides (which constitutes nearly 2/3 of that 40,000 deaths figure you quoted), you would see more handgun-related regulations and initiatives being proposed. Not to mention the vast majority of gun homicides are committed with a handgun.

Yet, handguns are almost never mentioned in the gun debate, which always politically swirls around mass shootings. It's always AR-15s and "assault weapons" and "mental health checks" and "bump stocks" that get national scrutiny, not the real killer (depressed people using handguns and sane criminals using handguns).

It's disingenuous to use a high hanging fruit problem to pretend like you are solving a low hanging fruit problem.

My stance on guns is that handguns should be much harder to obtain than rifles and shotguns. And even then, every handgun sale should come with a mandatory suicide prevention pamphlet. I bet that would lower overall gun deaths (suicides/homicides) way more than "assault weapons bans" and "enhanced background checks" and "bump stock bans" which would basically do nothing to lower mass shooting death counts.

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