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How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

nytimes.com

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Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#211

Post by chr1 »

m00dy wrote: post #205
chr1 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want examples closer to Turkey take Greek War of Independence, or forces fighting for liberation of Bulgaria, or northern Ireland. I have not lived in Turkey but my grandparents did, and i know some people who do live in Turkey. Of course i do not support terrorism, but PKK exists largely because unfair laws, untold stories, and ethnic hatred existing in Turkey. The only way to really win the fight with PKK is…

PKK killed a Turkish Diplomat in Northern Iraq last week [0]. You can't really explain this by lack of free speech or human rights. There are many cases like this in Turkey's history where innocent people get assassinated by some cowards. [0]: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/iraq-sh...

That is horrible, but a supporter of PKK would reply that Turkish army have killed and displaced Kurds in Afrin. War is an ugly thing, and everyone involved loses from it. The way free speech and human rights can help, is the same way it helped with conflicts in Europe. The country where speaking in kurdish can get an MP sentenced to 15 years for "separatist speech", https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people..., where there is a law for "insulting Turkishness" used against people like Taner Akçam, is deeply ill, and that illness is the cause of PKK.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#212

Post by baq »

jjtheblunt wrote: post #147
baq wrote: post #24

It begins with experts being blamed by politicians for daring to know things incompatible with a particular world view. When opinion gets more important than fact, democracy becomes populism and in the limit, authoritarianism.

I think that distinct groups of Americans feel this way about both the Democratic Party supporters and the Republican Party supporters.

i'm not from the US nor live there so can't really say :)

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#213

Post by blaser-waffle »

csomar wrote: post #146
99052882514569 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, I'm no fan of Erdogan, but statistics like that should be used with caution. This precipitous decline does not show what you imply it shows. This is what happens when your currency tanks, numbers like "GDP in USD" get all out of whack. Compare and contrast with GDP per capita PPP[1] [1] https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp-per-capita-ppp

> This is what happens when your currency tanks, numbers like "GDP in USD" get all out of whack. Your currency tanking is worse than having the GDP going down.

How?

edit: I mean that as a genuine, serious question, how is that worse?

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#214

Post by 99052882514569 »

csomar wrote: post #146
99052882514569 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, I'm no fan of Erdogan, but statistics like that should be used with caution. This precipitous decline does not show what you imply it shows. This is what happens when your currency tanks, numbers like "GDP in USD" get all out of whack. Compare and contrast with GDP per capita PPP[1] [1] https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp-per-capita-ppp

> This is what happens when your currency tanks, numbers like "GDP in USD" get all out of whack. Your currency tanking is worse than having the GDP going down.

My point is that in this case, it is one and the same, because you chose to denominate it in a currency whose value went up, a lot.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#215

Post by 99052882514569 »

doctorpangloss wrote: post #105
99052882514569 wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, I'm no fan of Erdogan, but statistics like that should be used with caution. This precipitous decline does not show what you imply it shows. This is what happens when your currency tanks, numbers like "GDP in USD" get all out of whack. Compare and contrast with GDP per capita PPP[1] [1] https://tradingeconomics.com/turkey/gdp-per-capita-ppp

Engineers have a hard time disliking someone for emotional reasons though. Like it’s not enough that Erdogan is a bad guy, it has to be about numbers.

It is absolutely (not just, but also) about numbers, just not nominal GDP in USD.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#216

Post by sgnelson »

sgnelson wrote: post #117

Same thing has happened in Hungary https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/06/george-...

Let me add as well: Some similar types of things are happening in the US. Politics above science.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/25/trump-...

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#217

Post by TomMckenny »

Bartweiss wrote: post #120
TomMckenny wrote: post #71

It's disturbing this produced a sort of flame war. In the not-so-distant-past, a dictator purging academics would be clearly and universally acknowledged as bad. Somehow it's now twisted around to claim that critics of _supporters_ of a regime are actually the real "oppressors". Interesting times.

> In the not-so-distant-past, a dictator purging academics would be clearly and universally acknowledged as bad. Honestly, I'm not so sure that's true. That's still a consensus view for people without a stake in what's happening, and it never has been clear and universal for those close to the topic. (Who, as here, generally accept the principle but reject the accuracy of both 'dictator' and 'purge'.) It's not hard t…

You are correct, unfortunately. There must always be a contingent that supports the autocrat or else he would not be in power. "universal" is indeed too broad a term.

And indeed, in the US there were things like the Madison Square pro-nazi rally in 1939. And just as there were pro-democracy denunciations of Pinochet that Nixon et co ignored, so too today there is denunciation of appalling autocratic behavior that will be ignored and will need to be watered down to justify to the public. Perhaps in the past too there were arguments of the form "thousands of political firings do not constitute a purge because the New York Times is X"

I am accustomed to solution oriented discussions on these topics. So while interesting from an anthropological point of view, defense and praise of autocratic behavior is a breaking distraction from finding solutions.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#218

Post by deogeo »

peu4000 wrote: post #209
deogeo wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Amazing how a billionaire funding an institution with a self-admitted propaganda purpose is 'democracy', while elected officials trying to limit the influence of foreign capital is 'authoritarian'. By that logic, limiting the influence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute is also anti-democratic.

It is quite amazing that different situations are different.

This reads like a dismissal, yet refutes none of my observations.

Re: How Turkey Purged Its Intellectuals

#220

Post by Can_Not »

not_a_cop75 wrote: post #20
mklingen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just come out and say what you mean instead of slimy implications. It's obvious you believe in the false narrative that conservatives are somehow being "persecuted" in academia. This is a disengenous lie spread by right wing propaganda networks like fox news from a few cherry-picked examples. And even if it were true, people disagreeing with your position and calling you out on it is not "persecution."

Andy Ngo, an independent journalist, almost losing his life is hardly a cherry-picked example.

Just a quick fact-check, it would be more accurate to label Andy Ngo as a fascist propagandist and agitator than "independent journalist" and a having a milk shake thrown at you is not "almost losing your life".
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