H-1B: Federal judge backs government’s narrower view of ‘specialty occupation’

$80k average is very low if we are to believe that these workers can’t be found in the USA, where the average for a tech worker is significantly higher at >$110k. Also, the minimum H1B wage is still $60k, which seems to encourage companies to try anything to get approval for what amounts to the wages of junior and intern level employees. You can see this low minimum is clearly being utilized since the average is $30k cheaper annually. The average H1B wage alone tells you the wages are purposefully bid underneath the average tech worker as a cost savings. If the talent actually could not be found from citizens, the wages (price) would obviously be above what citizens are paid. Basic economics.

You want to make your case based on the long-term unemployment statistic? It is a poor measurement to trot out here, since the definition of the measurement will no longer count individuals that exit the field or give up searching or no longer fit in the period of measurement. All it says is that inside the period of measurement, the individuals being measured did not report to the survey lottery that they were claiming unemployment benefits or that they were seeking a replacement job. I know of no one who has ever been contacted by such a survey, so it is difficult to place any faith in the results that are measured outside of unemployment benefits. What is not answered is whether U.S. citizen tech workers are actually working in tech or properly utilizing their skills, experience, or degree. Just because people are employed doing something does not mean people are not perhaps chronically underemployed. In fact we know this in a modern chronic issue in many fields (STEM, etc.).

The history of the tech sector is rife with examples of people that are self-taught or transitioned into a tech job without a degree to speak of (HS drop-outs too). I don’t think you can make a blanket statement that people that didn’t choose CS as their initial degree are lower quality than an individual from another nation that likely (highly likely) completed a CS degree with the very intent of increasing their chances of immigrating.

It may be difficult for you to process why citizens want to address the issues in the H1B system because dare I say you might be biased?

You are using a rhetorical definition, not an economics one.

> its just as much rent as any positive effect on real wages. What does that matter?

Economic efficiency is almost synonymous with reducing rents

> They have tens of millions of people to buy from.

Shocks to the supply curve change equilibrium points in markets. There's elasticity of demand/supply.

> There is of course a third alternative, which is to impose duties on imports of goods in addition to restricting the importation of labor, which would substantially raise wages for low and medium skilled workers in this country.

Economic literature has been arguing the exact opposite for literally centuries.

> That depends on who is coming and going, and why they are doing so.

This is almost a Malthusian model or labor and resources and it will give you dangerous and obviously wrong ideas, like the solution to economic prosperity is marginalizing and kicking people out.

> Why not mention the lesser alternative to banning, which is to impose duties? Of course outright banning things for which our existing chain of production is insufficient would cause massive problems.

A 100% duty is a ban. A 50% duty is half a ban. You are objecting to the crudeness of a ban. I am objecting on the value of any restriction whatsoever by any criteria or method. Look for any chart of economic liberty and see where countries stand in free trade and economic prosperity. This is not a topic of debate, it's absolutely settled. Im trying not to be callous about that, but really its not something that should be debated, akin to refuting gravity and there is more than enough documentation in the open wild to read about.

> You keep talking about the economy prospering, by which I assume you mean GDP going up fast. My goal is for the people to prosper, not the economy

Just a metric like any other, the goal is definitely people's desired prosperity.

- In every country it always is and must be the interest of the great body of the people to buy whatever they want of those who sell it cheapest. The proposition is so very manifest that it seems ridiculous to take any pains to prove it; nor could it ever have been called in question had not the interested sophistry of merchants and manufacturers confounded the common sense of mankind. Their interest is, in this respect, directly opposite to that of the great body of the people.

(A) Prior to 1990, the processing times for employment-based immigrant visas were in the order of a few years. Practically speaking, no employer ever sponsored someone for an EB green card if they weren't already working for them at an office abroad. Congress wanted to provide a practical pathway for skilled immigration. The quote "non-immigrant" H, L, O, are explicitly intended to be stepping stones to permanent residence. Look up the Congressional record on this matter (ie debates on the 1990 Act) . There were also some articles from the Cato Institute elucidating this, but I don't remember their names.

(B) The original 1990 bill explicitly exempted H, L, O visa holders from having "non-immigrant" intent. The fact that folks on H, L, O are "non-immigrants" is an accident of how the Immigration and Nationality (INA) is structured. If you're not required to maintain "non-immigrant intent", and are explicitly allowed to call the United States your home by the law (specifically, the INA) you are in no sense a "non-immigrant". The later AC21 bill went further and made people waiting with approved employment-based green card applications, exempt from the 6-year H-1B limit.

Finally, it is insulting and degrading to be called a "non-immigrant" when you have lived for over 10 years in the U.S., by people who have no understanding how the system works, like yourself. I'm trying to be less triggered by comments like yours on HN, but it's difficult. I have to say that based on your commenting history here, I've noticed a very clear pattern of xenophobia, so even if you did understand how horrid the US system is, you'd still likely enjoy insulting people who've lived here for 15 or 20 years, by calling them "non-immigrants". But that's your prerogative/freedom. TBH, despite being a lawyer, rayiner, you have no knowledge of the legislative history of the INA, and shoot out falsehoods from your mouth, with an air of authority. I don't know what causes you (or caused you) to be so incredibly hateful towards immigrants, and I don't really care why either. But please don't turn HN into such a hostile place for non-citizens living and working in the US. I remember reading your comment from a month or so ago, where you called Canada's immigration policy "ruthless". That's a degrading term (towards Canada). I think their skilled immigration policy is the best in the world. Canada is a country that values skilled immigrants, and treats them with respect and dignity. I deeply wish the US had an immigration system similar to Canada's. But it doesn't. Canada is doing something good. But you chose to insult them for it. Canada's immigration system is the best in the world, and it actually allows a skilled person to get permanent residence quickly, and doesn't force you to spend a 10+ years on visas with limited rights, freedoms, etc. So please don't insult Canada. And ironically, while I can make $200k+ in the US, I am tempted by the freedom that Canada offers, despite lower pay there. It's unfortunately all-too-common for anti-immigrant folk on HN to paint all people on work visas (H, L, O, etc) as working for bad employers, or being thoroughly underpaid -- but this is rooted entirely in ignorance (or in willful dishonesty). My base salary is $140k+ which is an "OES Level 4 Wage", and I've made over $200k with bonuses in the past. Then there's folks like throwaway082729 who make $650k/yr: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20473537 When xenophobic people on HN are confronted by facts like this, it causes them cognitive dissonance, and throws into muddy water the foundation for their hatred for immigrants. And what happens? They simply downvote. They can't accept the fact that everything they've believed about skilled immigrants (e.g. being low-paid) is utterly false. Please don't be like that. Please try to be a better person.