Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#211

Post by yourbandsucks » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:53 PM UTC

pteredactyl wrote: post #206

yourbandsucks wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this comment, you're expressing concern that Google would be implicated by participating in the censorship, but you're not expressing any concern for the welfare of the 1.6B Chinese who would gain access to Google. I'm not OP but I'd consider that a very 'sticking your nose up' take on the situation. It seems to consider westerners' self-image as more important than Chinese access.

Your argument assumes Chinese citizens using Google is somehow better for them than Baidu. I have no idea. But I will not make the claim to know what's best for 1.6B, as you do. But to go down that road, I'd argue it's worse for the citizens. As others here have pointed out. Google's software enables advanced citizen tracking for the Communist Party of China. Prove me wrong though. Show me how Google China is better…

More options better than fewer options.

Especially for English language search.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#212

Post by inferiorhuman » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:54 PM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #200

miles wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Just look at how the CCP bullied international airlines about Taiwan > Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders. Three biggest US airlines bow to China Taiwan demand as deadline passes https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-44948599 Giving In to China, U…

"Of course we hope that when they operate in China they respect China's laws and rules, China's sovereignty and territorial integrity and the feelings of the Chinese people." >Three biggest US airlines bow to China Taiwan demand as deadline passes That was interim solution, if you check AA / United / Delta, they removed references of "China" for Chinese/Taiwanese cities name altogether. Also asking companies to confo…

Also asking companies to conform to UN recognized sovereign states as bullying is pretty silly.

Your argument appears to be "an independent body also recognizes Taiwan as part of China so airlines should do the same". Here's the problem: the United Nations did so at the behest of China and thus your argument becomes "China dictated that the United Nations recognize Taiwan as part of China and the airlines should bow to the same request." This is circular logic at best.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#213

Post by T-A » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:55 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #201

inferiorhuman wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly. And to think that Google would never submit to Chinese censorship in earnest is naive. Yahoo![1], Google, Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel all willingly partook in aiding the censorship apparatus. Yahoo! even went so far as to out journalists and politic…

What exactly does "submit to chinese censorship" mean in this case? China is already blocking these censored websites- linking them in search results isn't going to magically allow the website to load in the browser. Even in the example you linked, Yahoo! said "it must respect the laws of governments in jurisdictions where it is operating." How is complying with this different than complying with a U.S. Government su…

> China is already blocking these censored websites- linking them in search results isn't going to magically allow the website to load in the browser.

Unless the user clicks the little down arrow next to the URL, which opens the popup menu with "Cached".

And even if that were also censored, the titles, URLs and the first couple of lines of text returned by Google would speak volumes about what's going on. Imagine googling Tiananmen and getting page after page of search results which all turn out to be inaccessible. What would that tell you?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#214

Post by inferiorhuman » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:57 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #201

inferiorhuman wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could. Do you know that's the case? China allows a lot of foreign investments and to think that the only reason is to further their censorship is silly. And to think that Google would never submit to Chinese censorship in earnest is naive. Yahoo![1], Google, Microsoft, Cisco, AOL, Skype, and Nortel all willingly partook in aiding the censorship apparatus. Yahoo! even went so far as to out journalists and politic…

What exactly does "submit to chinese censorship" mean in this case? China is already blocking these censored websites- linking them in search results isn't going to magically allow the website to load in the browser. Even in the example you linked, Yahoo! said "it must respect the laws of governments in jurisdictions where it is operating." How is complying with this different than complying with a U.S. Government su…

How is complying with this different than complying with a U.S. Government subpoena?

Are you asking how censorship and subpoenas are different?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#215

Post by bduerst » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 6:59 PM UTC

jmeng0122 wrote: post #92

gowld wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just censorship. It never was. Dragonfly also includes actively assisting the Chinese Communist Party in identifying and persecuting people who look for information about freedom or for information about crimes committed by the Party/government

any article or press to support your claims?

The proposal for dragonfly had two conditions set by the Chinese government - the first was to provide censored search results in compliance with the firewall. The second was to link search queries to user phone numbers, which a director tried to hide and many employees revolted against: https://theintercept.com/2018/09/21/google-suppresses-memo-r...

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#216

Post by Wowfunhappy » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

bduerst wrote: post #207

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's probably not what the user wants in that moment, but it's what they should see . And under some circumstances, it may quite literally be the most helpful result. If someone searches for Tiananmen Square, what they really need is a hint that it's time to switch to a VPN.

This comes down to the difference in underlying values of different cultures. Forcing what you think people should want onto others when it's not what they really want isn't effective, even despite your relative moral justifications. There are ways to accomplish notifying the user of censorship which isn't shoving it in their face. Users simply won't use Google if it's beating them with a stick to remind them that we…

This is one of a very few places where I don't mind projecting my cultural values, and in fact consider it morally unjust not to do so.

Another would be equal rights for women and ethnic minorities. I don't care if someone else's culture dictates that men should have legal control over their wives, or what have you—that's abhorrent, and human rights should be universal.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#217

Post by carapace » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 7:00 PM UTC

There is a clash of fundamental values, it's deeper than politics.

Technology is driving confrontations with our values, our ideas of what it means to be human.

Organlegging was science fiction, now it's happening.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organlegging

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_theft

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_transplantation_in_China

"What kind of future do we want?", is no longer the question, because it's here, now.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#218

Post by papln » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

denzil_correa wrote: post #208

lvmii wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU doesn't even have free speech to begin with[] and it doesn't seem like it bothers many people. [] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr...

It is important to understand why the person was fined. The person held a seminar titled "Basic Information about Islam". It was advertised with an impression of "objective information on Islam". The person described themselves as an expert in Islam doctrine too. During the seminar, the person made a judgment position without facts. The courts felt it was an intentional move meant to rile up participants and disturb…

What was the judgment without facts? The seminars cited Muslim biographies, no? Surely telling people what's in the Quran can't be considered anti-Muslim incitement, or else every imam and mosque would be guilty.

> The courts felt it was an intentional move meant to rile up participants and disturb peace.

Are you saying that the seminars caused anti-Muslim violence? Were there incidents reported that made the connection?

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#219

Post by lvmii » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

denzil_correa wrote: post #208

lvmii wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU doesn't even have free speech to begin with[] and it doesn't seem like it bothers many people. [] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr...

It is important to understand why the person was fined. The person held a seminar titled "Basic Information about Islam". It was advertised with an impression of "objective information on Islam". The person described themselves as an expert in Islam doctrine too. During the seminar, the person made a judgment position without facts. The courts felt it was an intentional move meant to rile up participants and disturb…

Without facts? What she said is right there in the Quran.

Re: Google's Project Dragonfly 'Terminated' in China

#220

Post by dirtyid » Wed, Jul 17, 2019, 7:03 PM UTC

inferiorhuman wrote: post #203

dirtyid wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>bullied international airlines Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders. Has Bing exported censorship back to the West. Has EU right to be forgotten even made it's way to US and Canada? This is just fear mongering.

Airlines only remove Taiwanese paraphernalia when flights operates in China - you know complying to domestic Chinese laws. That's completely reasonable stuff that doesn't extend beyond Chinese borders. That's factually incorrect making your whataboutism in this comment and one where you replied directly to my comment seem like a deliberate attempt to rationalize the Chinese censorship apparatus. https://www.newsweek.…

I was referring to the Emirates Taiwanese flag incident, and other cockpit paraphernalia drama from a couple years ago. Airlines already had existing protocol of scrubbing physical Taiwanese references when operating in China. I wasn't aware of the website change, but China compelling airline operators to adopt UN recognized countries... is somehow unreasonable or even bullying is more than a little stupid characterization and almost a unique airline situation since most do not operate regional sites. The original point still stands, what Chinese filtering in western companies have generalized abroad?

> rationalize the Chinese censorship apparatus.

This is easy to rationalize, though I don't endorse how far China went - China started internet censorship apparatus in response to calls of ethnic violence after the XinJiang riots a decade ago. Facebook and Twitter was blocked post incident primarily because they refused to censor/filter these calls for violence (from both sides). Domestic terrorism doesn't fly in the west anymore, you can say China was prescient in this regards and many western companies lost out due to misplaced naivety. Now Google wants to crawl back when winds in the west is shifting.