The Toyota Way • Hacker News Board

Re: The Toyota Way

#211

Post by ak217 » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 5:47 PM UTC

nihonde wrote: post #185

ak217 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he was probably hitting the gas and accelerating. ...Or the car was actuating the throttle as if he was hitting the gas, a.k.a. unintended acceleration. I see a lot of people like you in this thread and elsewhere dismissing unintended acceleration experiences. Before you continue to do so, I would urge you to read the NASA report on the Toyota unintended acceleration case and related documents ( https://www.nhtsa.g…

There is a long history of American automakers and their cohorts in the media and elsewhere who use these scandals to scare buyers away from Japanese makes. See what they did to Suzuki with the Jimny in the eighties for the most egregious example. I watched this “scandal” closely at the time, and it smelled like a rat all along. Fortunately, these tactics are ineffective, but there will always be anecdotal persistenc…

Putting aside other aspects of your bias, it's ironic that you insinuate that a "slander" happened, because the opposite effect occurred (as described by slide 9 in my second link). The US Transportation Secretary claimed that Toyota was exonerated, even though the report given by NASA did not support that claim.

Re: The Toyota Way

#212

Post by mbubb » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 7:20 PM UTC

windexh8er wrote: post #165

mbubb wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I’ve heard it, Deming was having trouble getting people to listen to him made me chuckle - its not like he did anything of value... Deming has always been a reminder to think about counter tendencies. He might not have made sense to the Detroit execs in 1950-1975 but his relevance changed sharply after that.

Deming didn't do "anything of value"? Considering Kaizen and the concept of continuous improvement in Japan is mostly attributed to him. The prime minister awarded him the Order of the Sacred Treasure and recognizes him for their post-war rebirth as an industrial power. Detroit did everything wrong at the time (see GM's disaster in automation at their Hamtramck facility [0]). Even when American execs were posed with…

yeah 100% joking Deming was an amazing human being. He was a key figure in WWII military supply logistics, too

Re: The Toyota Way

#213

Post by mbubb » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 7:22 PM UTC

windexh8er wrote: post #172

TotempaaltJ wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think gp was being sarcastic...

Probably, although I feel as though that perspective about Deming is, unfortunately, a reality for some.

Not for me. I had an uncle who was a Mech Engineering professor and I learned about his role in WWII and postwar Japanese rebuilding.

Re: The Toyota Way

#214

Post by Ambele » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 7:36 PM UTC

bitwize wrote: post #84

In the 1960s, my father was a manufacturing engineer for BigTechFirm (this was back when BigTechFirms built actual stuff, rather than trafficking in webshit). On the shop floor, there were A, B, and C workers on a line in descending order of skill level required and roughly ascending order of available workers. It was a true assembly line model. I believe the A and B workers had more variety to their work but the C w…

You should know that Toyota went full Agile last year. Not pure Agile but Agile in the Toyota Way -- where they produce 20x the documentation that the Waterfall Method produces. I'm not commenting on whether this is a good or a bad thing because my opinion doesn't matter but it enabled everyone to try something new. If the upper management in charge of tech had any free time, they'd might benefit from reading The Mythical Man-Month as you've brought up. Toyota has been about a year or three behind all of the car companies to adopt new tech like Alexa and Apple CarPlay. Regardless, Toyota has come a pretty long way since first being a loom company.

Re: The Toyota Way

#215

Post by Ambele » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 8:16 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #2

How do you maintain "Principle 1" while being a publicly traded company? The way the stock market is designed (and the fact that stockholders often get to appoint the board who gets to appoint the CEO) means they're going to put short term profits over long term viability. Many companies have been ruined and continue to be ruined by this short-term-ism chase for quarterly and yearly profits. For example look at the f…

It's hard to say how Toyota is governed unless you know more about how the Tokyo Stock Exchange functions. Toyota shares are only available here in the form of ADRs (American Depository Receipts). Each ADR share represents two shares of common stock on the Tokyo Stock Exchange.

Toyota might not have chase short term profits like many American companies choose to do. After two hours of googling it (and reading english web pages only, not japanese webpages), the only notable thing I discovered was that Toyota pays out 30% of its profits in the form of dividends and spends 20% of its profits on share buybacks for a total shareholder return of roughly 50% of earnings each year. This indicates that Toyota is shareholder friendly but it's not clear if this is an obligation or a choice.

Instead of chasing short-term profits, I've observed that Toyota spends fair budget on advertising and showboating futuristic looking hype technology that is never intended to be released or used. Some investors primarily look at the daily news and are satisfied with this strategy. The technology Toyota intends on using isn't hyped up; it's kept a secret until it's actually released to drivers.

Finally 90% of Toyota Corporate Employees in the Plano, TX US Headquarters are contractors from other companies. Those ones sure as hell aren't getting any quarterly performance bonuses or any executive compensation. At best, the executives bonuses are getting to keep your air-conditioned job for another 3 years.

Re: The Toyota Way

#216

Post by Ambele » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 8:20 PM UTC

opencl wrote: post #69

Someone1234 wrote: post #2

How do you maintain "Principle 1" while being a publicly traded company? The way the stock market is designed (and the fact that stockholders often get to appoint the board who gets to appoint the CEO) means they're going to put short term profits over long term viability. Many companies have been ruined and continue to be ruined by this short-term-ism chase for quarterly and yearly profits. For example look at the f…

Japanese corporate governance does not work quite like in the US, either legally or culturally. Shareholders actually generally have more decision making power than in the US but tend not to exercise it very often and basically trust the existing leadership. Toyota has been publicly traded for 70 years and their shareholders (which are primarily other large Japanese conglomerates) have never even tried to make these…

Finally someone that understands the difference.

Re: The Toyota Way

#217

Post by Ambele » Thu, Jun 27, 2019, 8:24 PM UTC

mindcrime wrote: post #74

Retra wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the writers of Office Space have gone on record saying "TPS report" is a meaningless term used simply to evoke a sense of wasteful bureaucratic nonsense.

Hmm... this article[1] cites an interview with Mike Judge where he says it mean "Test Program Set" when he was an engineer. Anyway, I've seen more than a few people jump to the conclusion that it stands for something to do with the "Toyota Production System" which is unfortunate. [1]: http://mentalfloss.com/article/57338/what-tps-report

That's too bad. It's quite funny thinking Toyota Production System is where TPS reports come from because it's so believable. Even though Toyota switched to Agile-ish methodologies, they still produce 20x the documentation and paperwork that the Waterfall method produces!

Re: The Toyota Way

#218

Post by artsyca » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 1:27 AM UTC

stordoff wrote: post #195

Jtsummers wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe don’t edit your post next time? Especially after people have replied. That’s a very dishonest mode of discussion.

What was edited? The discussion still appears to make sense.

The point is dear friends and colleagues, that none of us signed up to be computer professionals only to have our craft usurped by a bunch of management types trying to make a name for themselves by spouting eastern philosophies and wearing ragged golf shirts

I am tired of having a textbook thrown at me every time I ask a human question and treated like a factory floor worker by human automata and recent grads suffering from impostor syndrome

I know there is more to software than bottlenecks and efficiencies and all that tripe it seems quality and quantity are the only measures may as well go back to East Germany where all this bullshit emanates from in the first place

Even the damned ranking system on hacker news is an echo to the system used in North Korea. Software has become a breeding ground of groupthink and it's this kind of crap that fuels it

Are you seriously telling me Toyota is a better software company than Nintendo?

Re: The Toyota Way

#219

Post by shostack » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 4:40 AM UTC

wyclif wrote: post #154

karthikb wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 4Runner has barely changed in 10 years. Which makes a lot of sense when you consider how and where it's used. It's easier to have service and repair infrastructure for one car with identical mechanicals over a decade than 3 or 4.

Honda makes cars. Toyota makes appliances for people who hate driving.

The Supra would like to disagree with you.

Re: The Toyota Way

#220

Post by kazinator » Fri, Jun 28, 2019, 4:49 AM UTC

wyclif wrote: post #154

karthikb wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The 4Runner has barely changed in 10 years. Which makes a lot of sense when you consider how and where it's used. It's easier to have service and repair infrastructure for one car with identical mechanicals over a decade than 3 or 4.

Honda makes cars. Toyota makes appliances for people who hate driving.

Nope; both are like that now. They used to make fun cars for people who love driving. Honda held out some five to ten years longer than Toyota, that's all.