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Planting 1.2T Trees Could Cancel Out a Decade of CO2 Emissions

e360.yale.edu

211–220 of 332 posts

Re: Planting 1.2T Trees Could Cancel Out a Decade of CO2 Emissions

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s a source from Nasa: https://climate.nasa.gov/news/903/coal-and-gas-are-far-more-... And a quote: “Using historical electricity production data and mortality and emission factors from the peer-reviewed scientific literature, we found that despite the three major nuclear accidents the world has experienced, nuclear power prevented an average of over 1.8 million net deaths worldwide between 1971-2009 (see Fig. 1)…

That's just comparing them with coal to sound great. The three major nuclear accidents do not represent the worst which nuclear plants are capable of. For example we have yet to see what can happen if a nuclear plant is sabotaged - that's not FUD its a real vulnerably of the technology and is a reason why they incur constant exceptional security as well as safety costs. They consume alot of water resource as well, fo…

> For example we have yet to see what can happen if a nuclear plant is sabotaged - that's not FUD

That's FUD. What are you proposing is going to happen that would be worse? You can't get a nuclear explosion; the fuel isn't weapons grade. You can get a meltdown and a hydrogen explosion, but that is what happened at Chernobyl. It leaves behind a hot mess and a large cleanup bill but hardly anybody dies. Especially if you're not an obtuse Soviet bureaucracy that dispatches ordinary firefighters to deal with it without adequate training or equipment.

> They consume alot of water resource as well, for cooling.

Water isn't "consumed", it starts off as H2O and ends up that way. It evaporates and then condenses again somewhere downwind.

Re: Planting 1.2T Trees Could Cancel Out a Decade of CO2 Emissions

#212
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuts into my solar power generation through. So its a trade-off. Interestingly enough, from an energy production perspective the solar panels on the roof result in more reduction in CO2 than the trees do.

Can you prove that or back that up with some facts?

I can tell you how I reason to it.

According to many sources, but I will cite this one[1] a single tree converts about 50 lbs of CO2 in a year. There are three trees on my property, a city tree (planted by the city) and two Birch trees planed by the original developer. All are deciduous so lose leaves in the winter but we'll give them full credit anyway, so call it 150 lbs of CO2 a year.

My rooftop solar system nominally puts out 5.2 kW of power under full sunlight, although efficiencies cut that down to around 4.8 kW net into the grid. I have over 10 years of data from the system, drilled down though it averages out to about 4.5 "solar hours" per day with an average daily output of about 22 kWH per day or about 8 MWH per year.

The US Energy Information Association (EIA) tracks a number of statistics, but the one that is most relevant is the number of metric tons of CO2 per MWH per state. You can see California's number in this report : https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/california/ is 474 lbs per MWH.

Using that number, my rooftop solar system "saves" (which is to say doesn't generate) about 3,792 lbs of CO2 a year. Which, is way more than the 150 lbs a year the trees are taking out of the air. This is why the 1.2T trees, or 160 per person, is such a large number. A family of four would need to plan 640 trees on their lot, which would remove 32,000 lbs of CO2, which is a lot. To match my solar panels I would need to plant an additional 76 trees.

What you can take away from that is that solar panels in places where you can't put trees are a solid alternative. And planting trees rather than letting unused land sit idle as a field of grass is also a good plan. As a home owner, solar, even in places where it won't generate all your energy needs, will help cut CO2 emissions.

[1] https://projects.ncsu.edu/project/treesofstrength/treefact.h...

Re: Planting 1.2T Trees Could Cancel Out a Decade of CO2 Emissions

#213
post #188
post #46

A good way to take part in increasing the number of trees, if you own your own home, is to improve the state of your shade trees. The trees absorb atmospheric carbon while also reducing home temperatures in summer, which in turn reduces the electricity people use for cooling. (And you save money!!) So a shade tree is a particularly effective way to reduce both atmospheric CO2 and electric bills. You might think of sh…

I'm fortunate enough to have a pond and some marshy area bordering my house. My neighbors sometimes wondered why I don't trim it up and make it look "nice" right up to the water like some folks do. I like it wild, lots of trees and wildlife. I even let the wildness take a bit more of the yard than when i moved in. A few big trees quickly sprung up, no maintenance (compared to a yard) it looks great wild. Perhaps if o…

> A few other neighbors who were maliciously caring for their lawn

I think you meant meticulously, but it works either way. :)

Re: Planting 1.2T Trees Could Cancel Out a Decade of CO2 Emissions

#214
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuts into my solar power generation through. So its a trade-off. Interestingly enough, from an energy production perspective the solar panels on the roof result in more reduction in CO2 than the trees do.

Can you prove that or back that up with some facts?

It can be shown both bottom-up and top-down, but I prefer the bottom-up: Photosynthesis is usually an order of magnitude more efficient than photovoltaics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_efficiency

...an individual leaf might be peak out at 3% efficient, but it is operating just a portion of the year (maybe about a third to a half at full performance) and also much light gets reflected, absorbed by branches, or misses the leaves entirely.

Additionally, photovoltaics peak at 40% efficiency but get about 15-20% efficiency typically and can function the entire year (unless fully covered by snow). And they're displacing electricity produced primarily from fossil fuels which are burned at 30-40% efficiency.

Now from a top-down perspective: forests (in this case calculated by replacing cropland with forests) are estimated to sequester about 2 to 10 tons of CO2 per acre per year. https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R40562.pdf

In principle, an acre of about 40% solar photovoltaic system with a 25% capacity factor could produce about 3.5GWh per year. But typically, about exactly one tenth that is done in practice: 0.35GWh/year/acre.

Since you'd be displacing electricity from the US grid, which is currently about 420 grams of CO2 per kWh (based on my calculations of the most recent eia.gov figures, but you can find similar figures by Googling), that's equivalent to 147 metric tons of CO2 per acre per year for typical photovoltaics (and over 1000 metric tons per acre per year in the idealized case).

This person's calculations reach similar conclusions: https://www.solarpowerrocks.com/environment/installing-solar...

So absolutely, it's better to use solar panels than trees, at least until the grid is fully or nearly-fully saturated by solar.

...BUT once we fully clean the grid, trees have some advantages: 1) they efficiently suck CO2 out of the air and store it, not just produce the energy. That means you can actually draw-down CO2, producing negative emissions. 2) They're scalable. A tree is like a solar farm, CO2 direct air absorption system, and a chemical factory but can be planted as just a seed. It may not be "efficient", but being self-replicating and scalable is pretty powerful.

Re: Planting 1.2T Trees Could Cancel Out a Decade of CO2 Emissions

#215
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nuclear power is significantly more (space-, energy-, ..) efficient and clean than solar farms https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelshellenberger/2018/05/23...

Does this figure factor in the $100 billion cost of the Fukushima disaster?

$100B is actually a very small percentage of world energy costs. Less than 0.1% of what we spend annually.

Re: Planting 1.2T Trees Could Cancel Out a Decade of CO2 Emissions

#216
post #115
post #46

A good way to take part in increasing the number of trees, if you own your own home, is to improve the state of your shade trees. The trees absorb atmospheric carbon while also reducing home temperatures in summer, which in turn reduces the electricity people use for cooling. (And you save money!!) So a shade tree is a particularly effective way to reduce both atmospheric CO2 and electric bills. You might think of sh…

Where do you live where shade trees are a thing?

In my native Sweden (where it can be quite sunny in summer but not so much in winter) there is a concept of a "care tree", living up close to the manor of a yard of farm. [0] (link in Swedish, sorry, perhaps try Translate)

I am now living in Monrovia, Liberia, where you will often find large trees for shade, often mango, sometimes moringa or coconut. There's also a bougainvillea shading a bench in every village between Monrovia and Yekepa. :-)

Edit: I also want to mention the concept of agroforestry [1], a part of permaculture agricultural design principles, where trees (often fruit bearing) are used with lower vegetation, shrubbery and crops, creating a food forest. Incidentally, this is what farms often look like in West Africa, with coconut, banana, cocoa, papaya, cassava, etc growing intermingled on the farmland.

[0] https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A5rdtr%C3%A4d [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture#Agroforestry

Re: Planting 1.2T Trees Could Cancel Out a Decade of CO2 Emissions

#217
post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just comparing them with coal to sound great. The three major nuclear accidents do not represent the worst which nuclear plants are capable of. For example we have yet to see what can happen if a nuclear plant is sabotaged - that's not FUD its a real vulnerably of the technology and is a reason why they incur constant exceptional security as well as safety costs. They consume alot of water resource as well, fo…

Normal operation of coal powerplants is more dangerous than the worst accidents we had with nuclear powerplants. Modern nuclear powerplants are much safer than these that had accidents. Yes you have to include the possibility of new accidents - being sabotaged or not. But that possibility needs to be weighed with the probability of it. And it's very low. Meanwhile we completely ignore the 100% sure deaths and radiati…

For all the stretched comparisons about how safe nuclear can be, the technology is a liability which requires great care and expense to keep secure and safe.

Its promotion was competing with and obstructing the promotion of renewables for over a decade past, but its moot now that in the past couple of years the price performance of renewables has become unassailable. There's no point promoting nuclear anymore and arguing about how safe nuclear has been or could be - its more expensive already than wind and solar, materially, environmentally, security-wise and economically. Wind and solar are still on a rapid improvement curve. Nuclear powered heat plants are not futuristic generation options, they're relics from the nuclear arms race.

Re: Planting 1.2T Trees Could Cancel Out a Decade of CO2 Emissions

#218
post #169

CO₂ is a precious and much coveted resource in nature. It's predicted to become all sequestered under ground eventually, on a billion-year timescale (making it quite troublesome for life!). More pressingly, when it comes to plant life RIGHT NOW, we're still dangerously close to CO₂ starvation levels. The current ~400 parts-per-million are a good deal healthier than the ~180 ppm we've had throughout Quaternary (which…

> More pressingly, when it comes to plant life RIGHT NOW, we're still dangerously close to CO₂ starvation levels.

This is the most provocative claim you make and coincidentally the one you don't back up with any evidence. The one article you post from phys.org (1) does not use the colorful and misleading language of CO2 'starvation' and (2) actually concludes the opposite of the less dramatic point (plants will be better off with more CO2):

> But, as we know, C3 plants waste a lot more resources at higher temperatures, so any increase in photosynthesis from rising CO₂ levels seems likely to be at least cancelled out by the effects of the global warming it will cause. And that's without factoring in changes to rainfall patterns such as more frequent droughts. Solutions that seem to be too good to be true generally are – and, for the moment, that still seems to be the case for the idea that CO₂ enhanced crop yields will feed the world.

However the idea of being in a CO2 'famine' was recently brought up by the head of the Presidential Committee on Climate Security, William Harper, and also does not seem to be backed by any evidence or the scientific community:

> "It's a silly argument," added Britton Stephens, a senior scientist in the Earth Observing Laboratory at the National Center for Atmospheric Research, in an interview.

> Both independent academic institutions and government agencies around disparate parts of the globe have concluded more carbon dioxide will "bring many negative impacts" to plant environments, Stephens emphasized. "If someone is going to claim it's good, it's incumbent upon them to show evidence." [0]

I mean just using common sense plants can and clearly have thrived with lower levels of CO2, before the far bigger threat of human deforestation decimated forests and plant life. The issue isn't whether plant life will be slightly better off with more CO2 or not, but what negative effects changing climate will have on crops, which could be catastrophic and is the point the phys.org concludes with.

This seems like just another flavor of a very similar climate change denialist argument that there was higher CO2 levels during previous glacial periods, also debunked [1].

[0] https://mashable.com/article/trump-climate-panel-william-hap...

[1] https://www.skepticalscience.com/co2-higher-in-past-intermed...

Re: Planting 1.2T Trees Could Cancel Out a Decade of CO2 Emissions

#219

Not to be too snarky, but my first reaction to the headline was, “ only 1.2 trillion? What are we waiting for!” More seriously, though: the article claims there’s “ample acreage” for such an endeavor but I didn’t see where exactly they’re referring to. Are we supposed to imagine these are sprinkled here and there around the earth, and that there’s plenty of space just waiting for a tree to be planted, or is this some…

[deleted]

Re: Planting 1.2T Trees Could Cancel Out a Decade of CO2 Emissions

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is one I like: https://www.projectgreenhands.org they have Guinness record for most tree saplings planted in a day, over 28M planted so far.

where are the best places on the planet to plant trees ? From the point of view of stabilizing soil, controlling local climate and politically.

One analysis I read some time back claimed that Trees are net positive when they are closer to equator, IIRC 30deg each way. fortunately for this topic, the areas close to equator are also significantly poorer countries thereby maximizing the roi of a fixed dollar expense.

Overall I believe that if a functioning carbon credit marketplace is established we can fund the whole green movement with a fraction of world GDP and might even end up creating a whole bunch of jobs doing it.

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