Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE • Hacker News Board

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#211

Post by code_duck » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 8:05 PM UTC

nojvek wrote: post #200

code_duck wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well established for companies who safeguard vast amounts of consumer data such as google and twitter, as I said. Right, ‘The hotel said at the time that the practice was implemented "at the local level without the knowledge of senior management."‘ Obviously, if you are working at a motel and law enforcement enters and start demanding things, you -contact your supervisors-. Not sure how ‘privilege’ is involved, other…

It’s hard to keep up with laws. ICE is very much a bully, just like TSA is. They can make your life miserable for a while until you get yourself a lawyer (which most people can’t afford, and can’t lose time). But then who’s gonna police the police ?

It would be interesting to know how ICE obtained it. Did they, in fact, threaten or trick the motel staff or management? I would think that the staff is not personally in legal jeopardy from refusing to comply. I think most people would know that, too. Passing it on to higher-ups would surely be proper corporate protocol, and wouldn’t they be the ones to suffer legal jeopardy or harassment, not Joe Night Clerk?

Edit: checked into this. An older story has more details https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2018/01/0...

“ICE agents, who are tasked with arresting people who are not legal residents for deportation, would be given a guest list from the hotel’s receptionist, along with a form to sign confirming the lists’ receipt. The roster included information such as guests’ driver’s license number, room number, date of birth and license plate number.”

an article linked within the earlier one says even more. https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/motel-6-calling-ice-und... It appears to be a voluntary practice and they may even sell/be compensated for the list by ICE.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#212

Post by cromwellian » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 9:42 PM UTC

cheez wrote: post #152

cromwellian wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guilt by association? AT&T is a completely different kind of company than SV tech companies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%... The documents identified several technology companies as participants in the PRISM program, including Microsoft in 2007, Yahoo! in 2008, Google in 2009, Facebook in 2009, Paltalk in 2009, YouTube in 2010, AOL in 2011, Skype in 2011 and Apple in 2012.[22] The speaker's notes in the briefing document reviewed by The Washington Post indicated that "98 perce…

Apples and oranges. PRISM was not these companies giving Carte Blanche access to data, it was narrow to specific government warrants for specific individuals per later media reports, and nothing like the Motel 6 or AT&T issues. It sounds to me like PRISM = “I have a warrant for individual XYZ, please zip up all their account data and deliver it electronically somewhere for the FBI”

A separate program, MUSCULAR targeted dark fiber inter-data center links against companies which suggests that the tech companies were not handing out backdoors as they were accused of by Greenwald/Guardian reporting.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#213

Post by YeahSureWhyNot » Sat, Apr 06, 2019, 10:35 PM UTC

YeahSureWhyNot wrote: post #125

prolepunk wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all, could you please directly link to the source. Second even if this number is accurate, it is misleading and I will attempt to put it in perspective. People are coming to us border to claim asylum. They are unable to do that because border agents are understaffed (it's been like that since 2015 during Obama administration) and can only accept so many applications. In the meantime they have to live in appa…

just because the conditions are appalling doesn't make doing illegal things okay. you don't see me break into my rich neighbors property and move into his garden cottage just because my house is in appalling condition.

if they 'stole a loaf' and left the house it would be ok but they are moving in to the kitchen to have constant access to the loafs, thats what makes it a problem. once they make it across the border, they still have to maintain decades of illegal lifestyle. the legal framework doesnt let them achieve a normal life where their hard work will afford them a decent life. the struggles and difficulties continue for them and keep pushing them into illegalities. just letting them in illegally doesnt solve a problem. it starts a long chain of other problems that sometimes ends up with them being deported 20 years later.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#214

Post by cheez » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 2:11 AM UTC

cromwellian wrote: post #212

cheez wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM_%28surveillance_program%... The documents identified several technology companies as participants in the PRISM program, including Microsoft in 2007, Yahoo! in 2008, Google in 2009, Facebook in 2009, Paltalk in 2009, YouTube in 2010, AOL in 2011, Skype in 2011 and Apple in 2012.[22] The speaker's notes in the briefing document reviewed by The Washington Post indicated that "98 perce…

Apples and oranges. PRISM was not these companies giving Carte Blanche access to data, it was narrow to specific government warrants for specific individuals per later media reports, and nothing like the Motel 6 or AT&T issues. It sounds to me like PRISM = “I have a warrant for individual XYZ, please zip up all their account data and deliver it electronically somewhere for the FBI” A separate program, MUSCULAR target…

I don't really see how it's different aside from semantics.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#215

Post by cromwellian » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 10:44 AM UTC

cheez wrote: post #214

cromwellian wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apples and oranges. PRISM was not these companies giving Carte Blanche access to data, it was narrow to specific government warrants for specific individuals per later media reports, and nothing like the Motel 6 or AT&T issues. It sounds to me like PRISM = “I have a warrant for individual XYZ, please zip up all their account data and deliver it electronically somewhere for the FBI” A separate program, MUSCULAR target…

I don't really see how it's different aside from semantics.

The root of this thread was that then tech companies routinely rebuff requests and the example of AT&T was given and Motel 6 was referenced.

There’s a big difference between “show me your warrant” and “oh, the government asked nicely? I’ll give you the data as a favor”

It’s not just semantics. There’s a huge difference between being compelled and being a willing participant who doesn’t push back.

What evidence do you have that the tech companies don’t rebuff or push back on requests that don’t have the full force of the courts behind them?

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#216

Post by cheez » Sun, Apr 07, 2019, 10:51 AM UTC

cromwellian wrote: post #215

cheez wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really see how it's different aside from semantics.

The root of this thread was that then tech companies routinely rebuff requests and the example of AT&T was given and Motel 6 was referenced. There’s a big difference between “show me your warrant” and “oh, the government asked nicely? I’ll give you the data as a favor” It’s not just semantics. There’s a huge difference between being compelled and being a willing participant who doesn’t push back. What evidence do you…

No way to know since warrants are approved by secret courts. I'm going to guess zero pushback.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#217

Post by omegaworks » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 7:24 PM UTC

lamarpye wrote: post #174

omegaworks wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you assume Obama was or could have been any better? The same people held power in 2015: Graham, McConnell, Sessions. The same media institutions toed the line. McCain got the whole nationalist jingoism ball rolling with Sarah Palin on his ticket.

Because Obama is in charge of the Executive Branch, the President sets policy and Obama was President for 8 years. I also don't have this cognitive dissonance where I blame the current occupant of an office for the policy his predecessor started.

I hold to account whoever has power now. I don't play the "whataboutism" game, because it is unwinnable. There was always someone in the past that has done worse.

What matters is progress.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#218

Post by waffleguy » Mon, Apr 08, 2019, 11:02 PM UTC

romwell wrote: post #178

waffleguy wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no sense. You have no authority over the bank. The federal government can be considered a scary bully who will lie to send anyone to jail.

>You have no authority over the bank. And ICE doesn't have authority over Motel 6 without a warrant.

That’s under the assumption that ICE isn’t lying and intimidating. I find it completely believable they would use illegal and underhand tricks.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#219

Post by nathan_long » Tue, Apr 09, 2019, 4:12 PM UTC

bloudermilk wrote: post #189

code_duck wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t it your duty to protect the privacy of your data and your customers regardless of who is requesting data? I thought companies like Twitter and Google routinely rebuffed requests for information from government agencies and opposed restrictive rules, e.g. in China, and are praised for it. The concept of resisting government requests for information is well established. If the police called and asked for my custo…

> The concept of resisting government requests for information is well established. Well established for whom? For many poor Americans, the thought of resisting a local PD seems impossible, let alone a federal agent who comes knocking. Try to imagine being on your night shift at a rural Motel 6 when a few strange individuals start waving badges, making requests, maybe threatening to escalate things if you don't play…

> I believe ICE should be responsible for illegally attaining this information. They should also bear the cost of educating the Motel 6 workforce on their rights to resist requests from law enforcement agencies.

Totally agree. A hotel worker would be a hero for refusing to comply with an illegal request, but it's not reasonable to expect them to know what's legal or not here.

Citizens should be able to assume that those who enforce the law also obey the law, and when that's found not to be true, the agencies should be in deep trouble. Without law abiding law officers, the whole system falls apart.

Re: Motel 6 to Pay $12M after Improperly Giving Guest Lists to ICE

#220

Post by lamarpye » Tue, Apr 09, 2019, 5:27 PM UTC

omegaworks wrote: post #217

lamarpye wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Obama is in charge of the Executive Branch, the President sets policy and Obama was President for 8 years. I also don't have this cognitive dissonance where I blame the current occupant of an office for the policy his predecessor started.

I hold to account whoever has power now. I don't play the "whataboutism" game, because it is unwinnable. There was always someone in the past that has done worse. What matters is progress.

No, you are not. You are blaming Trump for a policy that was started when Obama was President. This isn't a "whataboutism" situation. When called on it, you tried to blame Republican Senators, even though they were in the minority when this policy was started.