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Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

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Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#211

Post by chessturk »

gowld wrote: post #88
ChuckMcM wrote: post #30

It is an interesting experiment but if it is really a tool for social change then the ability to correct one's score can't really rely entirely on things where the individual has no control. In the US getting a felony on your record is perhaps the biggest limiter to your future success that you can do. There are so many things stacked against you at that point. In California there is at least a process for getting so…

It's China. It's a tool for social control and keeping the Communist Party billionaires in power.

[flagged]

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#212

Post by est »

_bxg1 wrote: post #140

Studies, especially in recent years, have shown that punishment is not an effective way of improving on self-destructive behavior. Usually things like procrastination and substance abuse are irrational symptoms of emotional drain and hopelessness, and punishment exacerbates those problems. There was an HN post about it just the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19487411 . Poverty and debt tend to also p…

The truth is simple:

In China, banks are run by the government, yet there are shit ton of scams that borrows money from the party and never pays it back. In many cases the loan guarantor has no mortgage to payback at all.

In this "social credit" system from Supreme Court, 90% of the victims are worthless loan guarantors involved in some kind of loan scam.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#213

Post by wjmao88 »

This is not the social credit system(edit based on OP comment: the dystopic social credit system that people are afraid of). This is just the list of discredited people("Shi Xin Zhe" list) published by China's court system. The whole list is published on http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/

You don't end up on the list for simply owing money (and it has nothing to do with social mis/conduct), you end up on the list for being sued over the money you owe, and the court determining that you do have to pay and that you have the ability to pay based on your personal financials (or if you refuse to disclose your personal financials to the court), and you still refuse to pay. Hence why its maintained by the court system.

The word "Lao Lai" that is quoted to describe them in the article is literally "long term renege".

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#214

Post by alanwong »

Legogris wrote: post #37

Not at all defending the system here, but the article exaggerates quite a bit when talking about the trains. > In China, only those who cannot afford the high-speed train take the slow train. I have taken a similar train from Shanghai to Shenyang, it was also a bit north of 30 hours. Sure, it was not very clean and as everywhere you may encounter unconventional people but in general it's not at all the deadbeat carav…

OP and Inkstone editor here. The slow train certainly isn't a deadbeat caravan, and I don't think the article suggests that. But it is unusual for a businessman to take this train instead of the high-speed options.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#215

Post by ceejayoz »

thoughtstheseus wrote: post #134
ceejayoz wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not even remotely similar. China's rating system is government-mandated. Neither one is really optional, so does it matter?

In some ways yes, in others no. There is a difference between having the possibility of optionality (you can try something else if you want) and it being completely not optional.

We don't really have the ability to "try something else" when it comes to the credit bureaus, barring becoming a hermit. (Which would work in China's case, too.)

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#216

Post by btrettel »

maratd wrote: post #184
btrettel wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bikes don't go 60 miles an hour, which is necessary for some individuals who work an hour or more from their residence. And no, people don't do that sort of thing because they enjoy it. They do it because they have to. Please don't ruin people's lives with your ideas. Reread my post, as I don't think you're responding to what I wrote. I don't advocate taking away someone's license because of debts, which I believe…

I did. You spent most of it lecturing people who use cars. I explained to you why you were wrong to do so.

Can you explain which parts you believe are lecturing drivers? My post was meant to offer my perspective as a cyclist: driving is more expensive than many appreciate. I wasn't arguing that it was unnecessary; quite the opposite.

I don't know what you mean by "Please don't ruin people's lives with your ideas" if you were not referring to taking away someone's license because of debt. As I stated, I don't believe someone should lose their drivers' license because of debt.

What is the idea I have that would ruin peoples' lives?

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#217

Post by frotak »

wjmao88 wrote: post #213

This is not the social credit system(edit based on OP comment: the dystopic social credit system that people are afraid of). This is just the list of discredited people("Shi Xin Zhe" list) published by China's court system. The whole list is published on http://zxgk.court.gov.cn/ You don't end up on the list for simply owing money (and it has nothing to do with social mis/conduct), you end up on the list for being su…

> you end up on the list for being sued over the money you owe

You mean like the summary judgments that can be leveled against debtors in the US by debt collection agencies...

And which...ding your credit score. Which makes it harder to get credit...secure a loan...(sometimes) get housing...(sometimes) get a job

Versus...institutional segregation and denial of services by the government. Definitely not even in the same ballpark and definitely an artifact of the "social credit system" as described by the authors of this article in other comments here as being an accumulated set of practices and programs in China - no single thing.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#218

Post by btrettel »

amaccuish wrote: post #125
btrettel wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyclist here. I'm amazed by how much money people spend on their vehicles. I have an expensive bike (about $1000 new), and aside from perhaps $100-$200 on maintenance and equipment per year, I spend nothing else for daily transportation. It's hard for cars to compete with that on cost. I think suspending someone's drivers' license due to debts could help reduce one's transportation spending. Unfortunately, much of th…

Upvoting because people seem to be unable to read the caveat at the end of your post.

Thanks. I've learned to not "bury the lede" here...

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#219

Post by noobermin »

btrettel wrote: post #55
AmVess wrote: post #32

USA is heading down this road, too. 21 states will suspend your driver's license if you fall behind on student debt. This is ass backwards and destructive thinking. I am certain this is just the start of greater restrictions on the unfortunate.

Cyclist here. I'm amazed by how much money people spend on their vehicles. I have an expensive bike (about $1000 new), and aside from perhaps $100-$200 on maintenance and equipment per year, I spend nothing else for daily transportation. It's hard for cars to compete with that on cost. I think suspending someone's drivers' license due to debts could help reduce one's transportation spending. Unfortunately, much of th…

I cycle too and don't own a car, but I live in a lucky spot grandfathered in before the rent rose. I'm all for more transit options if they actually exist. You can't reduce car usage without allowing access to alternatives.

Re: Life on the wrong side of China’s social credit system

#220

Post by dnautics »

AcerbicZero wrote: post #173
coldtea wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As I've been reminded countless times, "driving is a privilege not a right". That's just a BS saying, not some rule of nature. Societies should define what is a privilege and what is a right. Do you think if there was a referendum on this specific matter (and not tied to 200 other policy questions, like general elections are), people would vote that "yeah, indeed driving is a privilege"?

>Societies should define what is a privilege and what is a right. That's a hard no. I see where you're going with this, and we likely agree on 90% of this topic anyway, but the issue with society defining rights is that you end up letting the mob decide the "right" of green eyed people to live has just become a privilege. Rights stem from nature, and exist with, or without society. If a society wants to add to the li…

There are definitely rights which are artificial and not natural, for example the right to be free from prosecution without a trial jury. The right to vote is kind of in there too.

I think it's more accurate to say that rights (in the original setting) are a list of things that the law cannot prohibit you.

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