Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

theatlantic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 276 posts

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#211

Post by bjs250 »

cdf2theworld wrote: post #61

Student here - I was struck by the "summer learning loss" quoted in the article. Everyone I talk to has this, myself included. The greatest reason for this, personally, is subject diffusion. This is especially true from freshman to junior year; we are required to take a dizzying number of classes that not only have nothing to do with our job field, but also have nothing to do with each other. I understand that it's i…

Here's the way I look at it: learning loss is almost inevitable, but I think it's less of a problem than it appears.

What I think we should instead pay attention to is the rate of re-learning. Something may take significant time and effort to learn the first time, and after say a year or two, one may forget it. But when re-introduced to the concept (when you may actually need it), I think one can re-learn it quite rapidly.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#212

Post by WhompingWindows »

packetpirate wrote: post #195

What a load of crap... "why do schools focus on unmarketable skills?" Gee, I don't know? Maybe because we shouldn't be teaching kids that they only exist to learn about a trade so they can be another cog in the machine? Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market and every person should be given the opportunity to branch out and be diverse in their studies? Colleges give you…

I, for one, would not have attended an undergraduate program that didn't have a strong humanities/core to round my intellectual endeavors. I knew I'd be reading ancient literature, philosophy, economics, psychology, and a number of subjects I'd not touch independently, and this encouraged/enhanced my general curiosity.

While I entered the school intent on majoring in Biological Sciences (genetic engineering), music is my second love and I was quite fortunate that UChicago had a fantastic music history/theory department. While picking up "marketable" skills in science/research, I picked up a double major in music, the musical skills of which have improved my playing every single time I have stepped to the piano since.

In my view, university should be about setting oneself up for a productive life. For most, this should include marketable skills, as well as enriching and non-obviously employable skills.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#213

Post by mirimir »

bjs250 wrote: post #209
mirimir wrote: post #194

> Why do advanced-math classes bother with proofs almost no student can follow? Because they're for math majors. And less-advanced ones are filters for potential math majors. Me, I hated that stuff. Engineering math actually taught useful skills. > I’m cynical about students. The vast majority are philistines. I was a horrible TA. I was mainly an RA, but had to TA one semester. I had no patience for the "what do I ne…

Politely disagree. I'm going to take engineering math to mean ~4 semesters of calculus (differentiation, integration, multivariable, and differential equations) as well as maybe a Linear Algebra class and a discrete mathematics class (probability, set theory, combinatorics). I would argue only the discrete mathematics course is practically useful Anecdotally, as an engineer in industry, I use very little of the engin…

I'm old. There were no PCs then, so the analytic stuff was useful. What I remember most about the pure math classes were proofs about whether or not something was solvable. But never anything about how one might actually solve anything. And far too much number theory. All too abstract for me.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#214

Post by qntty »

kypro wrote: post #201
ZeroFries wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the type of person you are. I didn't like them much, but lots of people had fun and formed great memories and friendships.

Why should tax payers be paying for, "people having fun"? I mean people have fun, form memories and make friendships on holidays too.

I think the point is that we should preserve the tradition of young people living in large houses together even if fewer people end up going to college. Tax payers don't necessarily have to pay for it.

BTW, if you spent time living in a city near other young people, you probably didn't miss out on much by not living in a dorm. Some people really thrive in that environment, but personally I prefer the apartment-style living in an area with a lot of young people (college campus or city with young people) that I transitioned to after freshman year.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#215

Post by nobodyandproud »

The article is making a roundabout case for trade schools.

But each business is like a fiefdom, with its very own set of very processes; rules; and even acceptable styles of writing.

Trying to teach this is a losing prospect, as it can only come from experience.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#216

Post by linuxftw »

packetpirate wrote: post #195

What a load of crap... "why do schools focus on unmarketable skills?" Gee, I don't know? Maybe because we shouldn't be teaching kids that they only exist to learn about a trade so they can be another cog in the machine? Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market and every person should be given the opportunity to branch out and be diverse in their studies? Colleges give you…

> Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market

That's just your opinion. Unfortunately, it's supported by the entrenched education establishment, but that doesn't make it true.

The cold hard reality is, if you aren't college material, don't attend some vocational school, and don't learn a trade, you're in for a life of hard labor or burger flipping. It's going to be a completely crap life for most people.

> those of us who do want to pursue a career that requires a higher education shouldn't have to spend the rest of our lives in debt just to do so.

Yeah, one way to reduce costs would be to remove all the extraneous coursework that's of zero value to society.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#217

Post by r_smart »

i_s wrote: post #44
analog31 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, just make life harder for everybody. Nice. How does subsidizing education, thus creating more college graduates, increase the value of a degree? There must be some sort of monstrous arbitrage going on, where young people have figured out a scheme for boosting their market value, and employers are utterly clueless about it. My own suggestions would be to provide better protections for blue collar workers, such a…

> Okay, just make life harder for everybody. Nice. If you spend less on one thing, you can spend more on other things (or tax less), so I don't see how that follows. > How does subsidizing education, thus creating more college graduates, increase the value of a degree? I would think about it like this instead: subsidizing education lowers the cost, making it more attractive than it otherwise would be compared to the…

|subsidizing education lowers the cost, making it more attractive than it otherwise would be compared to the alternatives

The saddest thing, is that it clearly hasn't. Tuition costs have sky-rocketed, as has interest rates on education loans. It's become absurdly expensive.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#218

Post by linuxftw »

fuball63 wrote: post #205
packetpirate wrote: post #195

What a load of crap... "why do schools focus on unmarketable skills?" Gee, I don't know? Maybe because we shouldn't be teaching kids that they only exist to learn about a trade so they can be another cog in the machine? Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market and every person should be given the opportunity to branch out and be diverse in their studies? Colleges give you…

I'm all for the movement to teach math and science differently so students garner a greater appreciation for critical thinking, but when the author suggested learning literature, poetry, and history are wastes of time, I strongly disagreed. The arts and history teach us empathy and give us context of the human condition. There is so much more to being a cog in the machine, as you said correctly. The more I see the wa…

> The arts and history teach us empathy and give us context of the human condition.

I disagree. These courses should be merely electives, if offered at all. The average person doesn't really have time for this stuff, they have a long road ahead of them and they need to spend more of their formative years preparing for the hard conditions of adult life.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#219

Post by lagadu »

justinzollars wrote: post #4

I feel like everyone is doing social media marketing - or something equally useless while the world around us is breaking down. In the Bay Area, in San Francisco specifically, voters allocated funds to fix or replace every single Bart escalator. The best hope we have for completing this job is 7 years. Yes you read this correctly 7 years. The problem is we do not have enough licensed escalator mechanics to do the wor…

> Money isn't the problem.

Yes it is. Throw enough money at it and you'll have contractors from all around the world flying in to do the work.

It's like how tech companies complain that they can't find candidates to fill their positions: yes you can, just pay >50% more than FAANG does, offer them good employment conditions and you'll have the people. You just can't find the people at the cost that you want to find them for.

Re: Students don't seem to be getting much out of higher education (2018)

#220

Post by jkingsbery »

packetpirate wrote: post #195

What a load of crap... "why do schools focus on unmarketable skills?" Gee, I don't know? Maybe because we shouldn't be teaching kids that they only exist to learn about a trade so they can be another cog in the machine? Because there are things worth learning beyond just what's valuable to the job market and every person should be given the opportunity to branch out and be diverse in their studies? Colleges give you…

In the second half of the article, the author talks about this:

> We can’t measure education’s social benefits solely with test scores or salary premiums. Instead we must ask ourselves what kind of society we want to live in—an educated one or an ignorant one?

> Normal human beings make a solid point: We can and should investigate education’s broad social implications. When humanists consider my calculations of education’s returns, they assume I’m being a typical cynical economist, oblivious to the ideals so many educators hold dear. I am an economist and I am a cynic, but I’m not a typical cynical economist. I’m a cynical idealist. I embrace the ideal of transformative education. I believe wholeheartedly in the life of the mind. What I’m cynical about is people.

He also cites a number of studies that show that the desired benefits of "training your brain to solve problems" either don't materialize or are non-existent after a few years.

Post reply on HN