Live data from Hacker News

Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

itvision.altervista.org

211–220 of 402 posts

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found its super dependent on what hardware you get, Especially on laptops. I always pick hardware that works perfectly with linux and I am left with a very premium experience but when using linux on bad hardware like macbooks and broadcom wifi everything just doesn't work right.

I have a MacBook that is malfunctioning under MacOS (it's running at 60-80% CPU usage when idle, known problem, no fix available). I tried installing Linux on it, couldn't get it working at all. I have a Dell XPS15, specifically chosen because the XPS line is supposed to work well with Linux. Numerous problems, all related to drivers. But the main problem is that every time Windows updates it wipes out GRUB. I figure…

ThinkPads usually just work with Linux. I bought a second hand T470s last year, and nearly everything works without any issues under Linux. Even my TB3 dock (some Chinese unbranded device) just worked when I plugged it in.

The only think that doesn't 100% is the fingerprint reader, apparently you need to setup your fingerprint on Windows first.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#212

I feel like a lot of the usability quirks that Linux has are trying to shoehorn a multi-user system into a single-user context. For example, there is so much work done (and even complaining in favor of doing that work in this article) to make it possible for multiple people to sit at the same computer. Nobody does that! Most people have more than one computer! Why do people spend their free time on that use case? Thi…

Right? The only reason user accounts exist at all in Desktop OSs is that all of them today were originally server OSs. Placing restrictions on user accounts is only useful for protecting the system from users, which is a valid concern on a network with shared resources but worse than useless on a personal desktop. Mobile OSs got this right: on a personal device, the permissions model should be applied to the applicat…

>The only reason user accounts exist at all in Desktop OSs is that all of them today were originally server OSs.

> "We managed to share home desktop computers in the 90s without significant problems, even though the OSs we used didn't support multiple user accounts at all."

That's not true. Window 9x series had user accounts (with no security between them.) This was beneficial to users because computers were expensive (and still are to most people..) so personal computers very often weren't personal. Having separate accounts, even without security, allowed individual users to configure the system to their personal preference and helped with file organization.

https://0x0.st/z-aG.png

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#213
As imperfect as Linux is, it's still better than Windows' dumpster fire and Apple's jail.

And as of right now I have an Acer Swift with an AMD Ryzen/Vega API which is running Ubuntu completely flawlessly. As in, everything works, all the time - WiFi, suspend, function keys, plugging in external monitors, etc...

It could be better, but I can say that about every product I've ever owned (and yes I've had an iPhone, it's the reason I never bought another Apple product ever again).

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#214

He's right, of course. The Linux community has been in denial about this for years. At the kernel level and close to it, the areas that consistently give trouble are video/GPU support and audio support. GPUs are hard, but there's no excuse for the mess in audio persisting for a decade. Video/GPU support is tough, but the current situation, where you have a choice of five different NVidia drivers for the same board, a…

People aren't in denial people are by and large aware of the issues an average person experiences when using Linux and the resources or lack thereof available to reverse engineer an entire universe of unfriendly hardware vendors work to enable joe blow to take his $399 walmart special and install linux on it.

If people want linux on the desktop to offer a more polished experience the only way about it is for everyone to put their money where their mouth is.

If "Linux" were a company we would be justified in demanding a fully finished product before buying but free software is a resource that already benefits billions even if they only interact with it via android, or web services.

"As the author points out, regression failures are a big problem. The sheer bloat of Linux has made it unmaintainable. And who wants that job? Big chunks of important code are abandonware."

This seems to be unsupported supposition that we are supposed to take as received wisdom.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#215
post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Exactly this. If you get a laptop that a GNOME developer uses, chances are you’ll run into maybe two issues a year. But try to get GNOME to run on two 4K displays and an RTX. But here’s the thing. Linux has won. Desktop is a dying market. Linux is literally the most used operating system on phone and in the data center, which is where it counts. The DE has gotten much better transitively from all the work that’s…

Laptops and 2-1 devices are the future desktop, and Linux has hardly won there. Android might run on Linux kernel, but that is a minor detail to userspace, and might be on the roadmap to be replaced by Zirkon. So no, it wasn't won anything besides server room.

As someone who owns a 2-in-1 (Lenovo Yoga 900 series), it works almost perfectly out-of-the-box.

Screen rotation, pen support, virtual keyboard, they're all there and get the job done. The only thing that doesn't happen out of the box is that my keyboard remains activated when I switch to tablet mode.

I'm having way more issues with proper scaling on my 4K screen than I do with the 2-in-1 support.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nature of open source development is there are duplicates. The distribution usually takes chooses from the alternatives the better option and makes it the default. In the GPU driver issue you are raising what is the problem. Fedora comes with nouveau out of the box and you can install an alternative very easily. You may have a gripe but proliferation of alternatives is an unusual gripe, there are multiple browser…

I've been using Linux on the desktop since Mandrake was a thing; if there's one thing I'm tired of it's having the "choice" of five broken implementations of an app rather than just one that works (the reverse is also annoying, when one broken monolith crowds out five working predecessors).

As someone who also uses Linux since Mandrake, I am tired of people telling me there should be just one desktop, file manager etc. There needs to be competition in FLOSS also, nowdays I use both desktop environments, depending on the hardware and mix and match components. For example I prefer Okular even on GNOME.

If people so desire a 'unified experience', you have Windows/macOS. I came to Linux as a refugee from these and am tired of the attempts to pull it in the same direction. Not everything has to be the same, in fact that's a terrible world to live in.

I am also tired of people saying things on Linux are "broken", they aren't any more broken than on macOS/Windows. Granted, you may have to get compatible hardware, which is only fair considering that's what you're doing when purchasing a Win/macOS machine and yet on Linux there's somehow this grand expectation that any random cram HW should just work. You don't expect anything not designed with macOS in mind to work there, so why Linux?

I use macOS at work and experience not so rare kernel panics. There was also just a bug in Premiere blowing up speakers on the MBP, being allowed to log in without a password, APFS logging encryption password in plain text etc. Yet somehow no-one is as strict on that as insisting on Linux somehow 'not working' even as am sitting here being productive on it for over a decade.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Linux is literally the most used operating system on phone... So what happens if/when Google switches to Fuchsia on their phones?

At this stage, I’d say I’ll believe it when I see it. I don’t doubt that Google has the capacity, but replacing a kernel that works is fraught with peril, and it could very well be that Fuschia remains yet another Google research project.

From what I've heard, Fuchsia is a "senior engineer retention project".

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you really want to see Linux on the DE, boycott NVIDIA, or write them a letter. I was watching a video on youtube (can't find it now) about gaming on Linux, and it suggested to update the PPA and install the latest drivers. (this was after I refreshed my desktop to be Ubuntu Budgie) So I did that, installed latest NVidia Drivers. Tried out some steam games, and went to bed. Next day I couldn't boot into the desk…

This is literally my only (big) complaint about Linux. Video drivers just SUCK . I have NEVER had a plug and play solution for display from my laptop. I do expect to be able to plug in an HDMI cable and be able to give a presentation. And I expect to be able to do this with an nvidia card. But they have always failed me and I don't understand why this problem still exists (I would actually be interested if someone kn…

> This is literally my only (big) complaint about Linux. Video drivers just SUCK.

Not really. The problem is NVIDIA doesn't give a crap about good user experience. The AMDGPU driver is pretty good and open-source to boot.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an Nvidia problem. Nvidia's proprietary drivers suck and they're nasty to anybody who tries to develop open source drivers for their cards. AMD and Intel GPUs have been flawless plug-and-play for years now. AMD plays nice with linux developers and you should give them, not Nvidia, your money.

I was really hoping the Radeon 7 was going to be better than it was. Because I want to move to AMD to avoid the Nvidia driver issues on linux.

I'm using an RX 560 on Linux[¤], I added a PPA to get the newest stable driver and Mesa, and overall it works fine, with a couple of minor annoyances that may be fixed as I'm writing this.

One thing that doesn't seem to work is hardware acceleration for Youtube videos in Firefox. Playback in a window is fine, fullscreen isn't. Another is that dual-link DVI did not work, so I had to change to using DisplayPort instead, though that issue may have been fixed in the current driver, I haven't checked. For me that's fine, I wanted to switch to DisplayPort anyway, to use the audio output on my monitor.

Those are incredibly minor issues compared to the woes of using the proprietary Nvidia driver. Not to mention the sordid history of graphics drivers on Windows.

[¤] KDE Neon, which is based on Ubuntu LTS.

Re: Linux Problems on the Desktop (2018)

#220
There are plenty of valid complains including many touched on in the article but there is also some unvarnished nonsense.

"Pulseaudio is unsuitable for multiuser mode - yes, many people share their PCs (an untested solution can be found here)."

This would lead one to believe that multiple graphical logins playing sound doesn't work in actuality Pulseaudio runs as a process per user and the observed behavior is the same as switching users on a windows machine. When you switch to a users graphical session that users sound comes out of your speakers. Further this allows it to be configured per user and for it to run without super user privileges. The only thing you can't do is say play music as one user and switch to another users desktop and listen to said tunes while hearing your users applications.

In most cases you actually don't want random apps you can't by design effect or shut up playing over your desktop. So this is the right decision in every possibly way.

"No reliable sound system, no reliable unified software audio mixing (implemented in all modern OSes except Linux), many old or/and proprietary applications still open audio output exclusively causing major user problems and headaches."

The last application that I recall that I had an issue with grabbing the sound device directly was a 15 year old version of Skype. Pulseaudio does all of the above and as it is and has been the standard desktop apps are expected to integrate with it and by and large that has been the case for about a decade now. The fact that somewhere out there old broken non compliant apps exist isn't a compelling argument. All popular platforms have a mixture of crappy and useful apps. People generally deal with this by using their favorite search engine to find good applications for their task.

"What if the user decides to switch from Windows to Linux when he/she already has some hardware? When people purchase a Windows PC do they research anything? No, they rightly assume everything will work out of the box right from the get-go."

They "rightly" expect hardware that the manufacturer doesn't want to support on Linux will be reverse engineered by volunteers because they already invested their money in a manufacturer that only supports windows. When the kind of person that could help you out makes 200k at Google it turns out that 50k of their time is not available to protect your $99 investment in your printer.

If you pay $15 a month for hulu + hbo, 10 a month for spotify, $14 a month for netlfix, $150 for cable in the next 5 years you will pay.

$900 for hulu $600 for spotify $840 for netflix $9000 for cable

If you paid for all 4 you bought a halfway OK used car. Perhaps a fraction of that might buy a more polished experience you don't need to piss and moan about.

Ultimately everyone will eventually upgrade their machine. Almost all hardware that a consumer would encounter or consider could also run windows. If you are considering switching to Linux and your current machine consider making Linux a part of your NEXT purchase. If you don't like it you can easily turn around and put Windows on it or hey put both.

Post reply on HN