I'm going to work full-time on free software • Hacker News Board

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#211

Post by azundo » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 7:32 PM UTC

Verdex wrote: post #193

leppr wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry but 1), 2) and 3) are ridiculous. What are you basing those assumptions on ? I don't see how any of these points relate to UBI. Why would we be obligated to provide welfare to people who spend their allowance on things other than food and healthcare ? 4) is a very good point. We don't actually know what keeps our civilization running. UBI assumes that people have a natural drive to be productive, but we got…

With respect to 1,2,3. People make some pretty bad decisions. And people like to trick other people into making bad decision. I didn't think this was controversial. Why is this relevant to UBI? One of the benefits of UBI is that it allows us to get rid of the welfare system. However, if people are tricked into giving away their money OR if they spend all of their money on non-food items, we now have to decide if they…

Is this not already a problem with the current welfare system in terms of selling food stamps? In which case is there any reason to suggest that UBI would worsen the problem significantly?

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#212

Post by SolaceQuantum » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 7:34 PM UTC

onetimeusename wrote: post #182

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it be bad to pick up a hobby that doesn't pay? I'd love for an explosion of art and philosophy to occur out of UBI.

There is already more art and philosophy than there is a demand for and there is not even a UBI. Increasing the supply of art and philosophy won't change that (to say nothing of the other activities people can choose). I don't want to create an incentive for people to drop out of jobs to spend their time in a worthless activity. By worthless I mean, they have created nothing valuable. It will create a loss of product…

With UBI, people can pursue what makes them happy and enriched in life, not what makes them the most productive. Is that so bad?

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#213

Post by skrowl » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 7:35 PM UTC

sctb wrote: post #176

skrowl wrote: post #18

Here's my best argument for why UBI can't work in the USA. Let me know where i went wrong: My TV told me a "living wage" is at least $15 (but probably higher in liberal controlled areas like NYC / most CA cities / etc due to high cost of living & taxation), but we'll start with $15 to make it easy. $15/hr at 40hr/week = $31,200 per year. $31,200 * 328,300,000 population of USA = $10,242,960,000,000 Written out (for e…

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18921194 and marked it off-topic.

That thread was "my best argument for UBI" and my best argument against UBI is off topic? Seems fishy.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#214

Post by FiveSquared25 » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 7:36 PM UTC

sridca wrote: post #135

blfr wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's sad in the same sense gigahours wasted in front of TVs are sad.

Have you ever stopped to think where this 'watching TV is wasting time' belief originates from?

The Internet and parents ;). However, people neeed to relax, espically with the overstressed and overworked condition of the Western World.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#215

Post by FiveSquared25 » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 7:38 PM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #89

blfr wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's the modern version of a minor landed gentleman who can pursue his interests. It's how we got science. Sadly, the best argument against UBI is that vast, vast majority of people will not be working full time on F/OSS or quite possible anything else.

> vast, vast majority of people will not be working full time on F/OSS or quite possible anything else. I doubt this. Everyone has dreams or long-term things they enjoy working on. And UBI wouldn't be enough for most people, so they'd at least pursue some form of cash-generating work.

You know what happens when you give the public UBI? You get teenagers without school! Some do great things, others, not so much.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#216

Post by mcguire » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 7:39 PM UTC

idontpost wrote: post #184

nostrebored wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Money supply isn't the issue here. If everyone has another x+12,000 dollars, the amount of money available for low income housing has strictly increased. Landlords are then in a position to raise prices proportionally. The "America's poor eat too much" line is also not strong. You might argue that they eat the wrong things; this is the food desert/education argument that's commonly made. Regardless there is already a…

> Money supply isn't the issue here. > If everyone has another x+12,000 dollars, the amount of money available for low income housing has strictly increased. Landlords are then in a position to raise prices proportionally. You're contradicting yourself through sloppy thinking. If everyone has another x+12,000 dollars, the money supply has increased. That's the definition of money supply. It's also a total strawman an…

You are correct; the money supply isn't an issue. However, inflation within a localized area of the economy is a thing (e.g. housing prices, health care).

UBI is a transfer of money from the wealthy, who would have used it to buy filet mignon or something, to the poor, who would likely use it to buy food and shelter. One should expect the prices of food and shelter to rise, relative to other products.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#217

Post by hacym » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 7:41 PM UTC

roberto wrote: post #186

sudofail wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but my point is that these sorts of comparisons are complicated, and the facts matter. Anyone can hand wave the figures and come up with favorable comparisons by including or omitting important figures. I don't think it's fair to make simplistic comparisons and say that Sweden pays 24k more in taxes on 60k income.

Also, you get more from the taxes than just healthcare. Free education, eg.

Is higher education free?

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#218

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 7:44 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #197

Verdex wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If people don't work on anything once they get UBI this isn't really a problem. Currently, there are many many people who already don't do anything. They only do a little as possible to avoid getting fired OR they do periodically get fired from every job they ever hold once their employers realize they're always going to be a drain on productivity. Having these people on UBI would actually allow productivity to rise.…

I'm also worried about inflation. If you give everyone $X/month to spend on essentials but the supply of those essentials doesn't change, then a very likely outcome is that the price of essentials, in aggregate, will go up by $X/month. We already see some of this with student loans. The government decided that education is important, so it created federally-backed student loans that anyone can apply for, and effectiv…

I'm still worried about this, and I can't get anyone to sketch a model showing this would not be the case (but see below, maybe it's way too easy to sketch a model showing anything you want).

Closest I got to seeing a counterargument is me vs. JoeAltmaier a couple of weeks ago:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18569493

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#219

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

blfr wrote: post #171

chriswarbo wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the sentiment, but "bullshit jobs" are also a waste of time (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs ); those also have the same downsides as many jobs, like stress, abusive managers, etc. There are also many jobs which are actively harmful to society and/or the environment (e.g. cold calling), where it would be better for everyone if those workers could just watch TV instead. I think this is one of th…

Bullshit jobs problem is entirely caused by labour being too cheap in turn caused by the only now industrializing third world. Same with poor working conditions. If the corporations had to pay the full cost of employing people without the option to subsidize it witch cheap Chinese labour, they would long had to get rid of most bullshit jobs (some inefficiency is of course unavoidable) and make work much better organi…

No. Bullshit jobs are the consequence of markets being short-sighted optimization systems, with goals only partially aligned with human values. It's quite easy to make money in ways other than delivering socially valuable things; in fact, many of the most profitable jobs and endeavours are precisely that.

Re: I'm going to work full-time on free software

#220

Post by ilovetux » Wed, Jan 16, 2019, 7:50 PM UTC

Verdex wrote: post #160

andy_adams wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must roll with some motivated crowds if everyone has long-term goals. > 60% of the folks I meet would be pretty content watching TV all day, every day. When you talk to them, they just talk about the shows they watched.

Most people just want to waste time watching TV would be the good outcome. I'm more concerned that it turns out that once money is no longer a concern that a large portion of people would spend their time trying to figure out how to cause problems for others. How many people would ignore education, socialization, and general societal cohesiveness if they knew that they would never have to worry about getting along wi…

I don't agree with this. People will still have to get along in order to survive. Two things:

First, crimes usually come with financial consequences I doubt that this would change even with UBI.

Secondly, its just as likely that the opposite becomes true and people learn to appreciate a sense of community much more deeply due to the lessening of competition. For instance intramural sports teams might become even more popular than they are now which could increase the general sense of camaraderie.

edit: grammar