Microsoft changed how it interviews software developers • Hacker News Board

Re: Microsoft changed how it interviews software developers

#211

Post by throwaway169169 » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 3:18 AM UTC

mancerayder wrote: post #39

Great, now can Netflix, Google and Facebook do this, too? Not because I want to work in these places, but because they influence everyone else and as a senior engineer in the systems space I feel I shouldn't need to study days or weeks for fizzbuzz sorting algorithms questions that are designed to test comp sci recent grads. I have a proven career, and was never suddenly stumped in a project due to not being able to.…

> You DID look at the CV before bringing the candidate in, didn’t you?

I would like to speak to this after interviewing at a few places recently, including Google. I don’t think a single interviewer looked at my resume. I’ve developed a sizable open source project that is used by real people for over a decade. If the company really wanted to know if I could write code they could just go and look at it. Instead they ask puzzle questions that I have no interest in and end up failing. These companies expect the candidate to spend weeks preparing for their hoop jumping, but can’t be bothered to actually read the CV. Multiple people didn’t seem to realize where I lived even when my address was at the top of the paper.

Re: Microsoft changed how it interviews software developers

#212

Post by pytester » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 3:22 AM UTC

recursive wrote: post #204

pytester wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>you need to do similarly complicated things all the time My policy is to ask about those things instead. The ones you'll actually do rather than the ones that are, at best, tangentially related.

It takes a few days to explain the business rules. It's probably better to use a well understood general structure.

It isn't that hard to isolate a block of code that addresses a small cross section of your business rules and ask a candidate to do something meaningful with it.

Re: Microsoft changed how it interviews software developers

#213

Post by scarface74 » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 3:32 AM UTC

cududa wrote: post #205

scarface74 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you usually get compensated for interviews?

I pay candidates for doing take home tests

It’s not a “take home test”. Half the purpose of live pair coding is to see how the candidate thinks.

It’s a relatively simple project with a skeleton of a class and failing unit tests. They have to fix the code to make the unit tests pass.

If they get through that, I give them a second set of failing unit tests that they have to make pass by fixing the class without breaking the unit tests.

Re: Microsoft changed how it interviews software developers

#214

Post by calewis » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 3:49 AM UTC

I think a dumbest question thread might be quite amusing?

I’ll go first, because I’m quite sure I’ll win...

This was for a front-end mid weight software engineer position. The candidate was smart and a 100% hire (I’ve since hired him 3x in different companies)

Me; “great thanks for your time and we will be in touch later today”

Co-interviewer; “I have one more question”

Candidate; “sure, go ahead”

Co-interviewer; “Imagine your uncle has just died and left you his pizzeria in his will, what would you do?”

Me; “what?”

Candidate; “what...? Errr... sell it because I’m a software engineer, not a pizza chef”

Re: Microsoft changed how it interviews software developers

#215

Post by cududa » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 3:52 AM UTC

kettlecorn wrote: post #195

DylanDmitri wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, these are software engineering interviews. It's the PMs who are designing and refining the process though.

It seems to me that it should mostly be software engineers designing the software engineering interview process.

At Microsoft many senior devs eventually go into the PM track (while still actively writing code) because there’s more salary there

Re: Microsoft changed how it interviews software developers

#216

Post by BurningFrog » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 4:15 AM UTC

a-dub wrote: post #175

kronin wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I give them a chance to judge their own skillset. After looking at their resume, I have an idea based on the projects they take credit for, what their experience level should be. If what they state lines up with their resume, and they are unable to answer a simple question, with multiple hints and help, then I absolutely assume they are a liar (edit: or delusional, which is even worse. An expectation I have of senior…

How do you know that you're not just crap at interviewing? Assuming people are lying is both extreme and presumptuous, no? Also, are your people actually reversing strings by hand every day? I sure hope not!

If you're crap at interviewing, you're just not going to do well at interviews.

That's unfortunate, but logically inescapable.

Re: Microsoft changed how it interviews software developers

#217

Post by suyash » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 4:16 AM UTC

Article used incorrect title, the original blog posts describes the interview Microsoft has for technical PM and not software developers. I bet that developer interview hasn't changed much.

Re: Microsoft changed how it interviews software developers

#218

Post by lazyasciiart » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 4:18 AM UTC

ams6110 wrote: post #174

YorkshireSeason wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

too-strong fear of a lying false positive You might be a bit optimistic here: it's not always easy to deal with "lying false positives". Depending on the legislation it may be difficult to fire somebody, and involve going to court, sometimes going on over several years. Vindictive personalities may engage in sabotaging the company, the team, their (former) co-workers, as a retaliation for being fired. (Anecdote: I ha…

I don't think there's any state in the US where lying on your resume/CV is not legal grounds for immediate termination. And any company that has thought about their hiring process for more than 30 minutes will have a probationary period of 30 or 60 days or so, after which employment can be terminated if the employee is not able to do the work.

Are you not in the US? I've never ever come across such a thing - probably because US companies can theoretically fire you on the spot for almost any reason except specifically disallowed discrimination, and most definitely for being unable to do the work.

Re: Microsoft changed how it interviews software developers

#219

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 4:21 AM UTC

0x445442 wrote: post #190

kronin wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked a candidate to implement an algorithm that reverses a string. I don't see that as a complicated problem. It's literally a for loop, and based on how they choose to implement it you can ask about implications of append vs. prepend, etc. I didn't ask them to implement dijkstra's algorithm, or even something as "hard" as breadth-first or depth-first search (which I feel any senior that deals with trees should be…

What I'm interested in from a senior engineer is how many systems they've designed, implemented, deployed to production and supported in their careers and what their specific roles were in those projects. If I can't get an idea from their resume I wouldn't contact them for an interview. As for the interview itself, well I've never needed to ask someone to reverse a string to determine if they're going to be of value…

[deleted]

Re: Microsoft changed how it interviews software developers

#220

Post by vkou » Mon, Dec 31, 2018, 4:24 AM UTC

Pokepokalypse wrote: post #168

vkou wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hazing the doctors go through is during residency, where they spend years, working like horses, for no money. I'd much rather deal with whiteboard interview bullshit a few times in my life, then go through residency in the medical field.

I'd honestly rather have the "bulletproof tenure" that doctors then acquire after they get through the hazing. Getting laid off every time a spreadsheet jockey in accounting makes a bad projection, is pretty disruptive. (as are the times when a competitor buys your employer just to shut them down, and etc: plenty of scenarios where you lose a job due to no fault of your own are rather the rule than the exception) - M…

> Getting laid off every time a spreadsheet jockey in accounting makes a bad projection, is pretty disruptive.

This has nothing to do with how programmers are hired, and everything to do with the business cases that building software serves. Even if programmers were hired like doctors, they'd still be cyclically losing their jobs, because their jobs are closely tied to the willingness of the economy to spend large amounts of money on custom software.

If you want a job for life, then you want to be in a profession that does something unconditionally useful. Healthcare, garbage pickup, teaching, farming, being a janitor. We're going to need people doing all that long after is dead and buried.