Developer on Call • Hacker News Board

Re: Developer on Call

#211

Post by windowsworkstoo » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 9:53 PM UTC

khendron wrote: post #99

I have a love-hate relationship with developer on-call. I see it as necessary and potentially useful, but it often gets abused. In my last job, it was something you were expected to do, and there was no additional compensation. On the plus side, it did expose you to all parts of the application, areas beyond your usual domain. On the downside, you are not only responsible for your code, but everybody else's as well.…

I've been on-call for almost 7 years, constantly. You git good at building stuff that doesn't break and/or self heals good enough till morning

Re: Developer on Call

#212

Post by ticmasta » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

notyourday wrote: post #148

tristor wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually more complex than that, even. I'm speaking from being an engineer for some time (~13 years) and a product manager now. The issue is that Customer A, B, C, D, and E want Feature A to behave in one way, and Customer N, M, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V want Feature A to behave in another way, and those two ways are mutually exclusive insofar as it can't merely be configurable, since Features B-F rely on Feature A…

> How do you ensure that your business doesn't get coopted by BoM (Buckets of Money) to basically be a contract development house and eventual acquisition target by your largest enterprise customer while ignoring/harming all your other customers who were earlier adopters? You don't. You remember who pays your salaries ( i.e. it is the customers who pay you buckets of money, not Joe Random User that bitches about payi…

>> you are nothing else but the custom dev shop for one or two bucket of money customers and you dont have a real product.

This is my experience building for and selling to enterprise. There are a limited number of 800lb gorillas and but every company thinks they are a special snowflake. This quickly has you building software tightly coupled to workflow which is death for commercial software. It's usually one of the reasons the market exists in the first place; incumbents can't get the required reward to match the effort at their desired scale.

Re: Developer on Call

#213

Post by gwbas1c » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

Multicomp wrote: post #131

gwbas1c wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's poor management. IMO, you should find another job and write a glassdoor review. I've stayed away from a few similar situations due to glassdoor reviews.

I can't muster up any disagreement. Eventually, I'll get there, but I've learned the hard way that moving from Support to Dev is IMO more difficult than moving from college student to Dev. Anecdata: there is sometimes a stigma from Dev to Support, the latter is lesser in programming skills than the former, so they "shouldn't" be allowed to cross over. If I could have told my past self not to take the support college…

I assume you're still very early in your career?

I suggest talking to a few recruiters, they'll know how to polish your resume. As long as you get developer phone screens, you're doing well. It can often take a few different interviews with a few different companies before you get an offer.

BTW, depending on your personal situation, it might be worth it to quit your job and start looking for a new one, full time. That's a big risk, though, so it really only works if you have no debt or very understanding parents. I've always found it easier to find a job when I can dedicate myself full time to my job search. 120 hours dedicated to a job search is easier when it's full time, instead of 1 hour a night for 6 months.

Re: Developer on Call

#214

Post by goguy » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

rb808 wrote: post #147

> People on call should get paid extra for it. Lol does anyone here get paid extra for being on call?

If you aren't then I hope your pay is above average, otherwise your bring taken for a ride.

Re: Developer on Call

#215

Post by fitnessrunner » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

I've done on-call in a fairly severe fashion, similar to a lot of folks here - one one night, off the next, one one, off the next. I didn't get compensated for it. It took a tremendous toll on my mental and physical health. Fixing issues at 2AM is something you have to experience for yourself before you have any clout passing judgement on whether "everyone should do on call".

The interesting thing is that the majority of issues that came up were not necessarily bugs per-say, but rather, the hundreds of input sources our app consumed (algorithmic trading) frequently had bad data, so it was always a scramble to add fixes and stay on top of it, till the next bad input stream came in. It never ends!

I'm not sure if I've seen it proposed yet, but a better strategy IMHO is to have folks be "on call" while they are at the office. Then rotate to the next global office when they leave. If devs want to stay and go above and beyond, great. If your company needs to be 24/7, you need to staff it properly 24/7. Or be very upfront about the sleep deprivation requirements when hiring for it.

Re: Developer on Call

#216

Post by stickfigure » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 10:00 PM UTC

notJim wrote: post #177

_ah wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union is a mechanism by which a class of people with less power (typically workers) pool together to enforce rules on people with more power (typically employers). Right now, software developers have LOTS OF POWER. Companies are constantly courting devs, offering very high salaries, and including incredible perks that simply aren't available in most other industries. Yes, some engineers are exploited, but on averag…

> Right now, software developers have LOTS OF POWER. This is actually not true in my experience. Having a high salary and perks isn't the same as having power. On-call is a perfect example where, AFAIK, it's not the norm to get paid for it (as a developer at least), and if you don't like it, you're free to get a new job. Except the new job will likely have the same policy. There are other work-life examples: for exam…

Except the new job will likely have the same policy.

Nonsense. There are a bazillion software companies out there and most look nothing alike. If on-call is a dealbreaker for you, just ask the right questions and be clear up front.

And if you want to work part time, consider contracting.

Re: Developer on Call

#217

Post by ThrustVectoring » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 10:16 PM UTC

alismayilov wrote: post #185

dopylitty wrote: post #134

It's interesting that both the article and many comments take as a base assumption that on-call should exist and then go into how it should be compensated or structured. I would argue that on-call shouldn't exist at all. If a company wants a system to be supported 24/7 it should have three eight hour shifts. Of course companies balk at this, saying it's too expensive, but if their product isn't worth paying extra for…

In general, 8-hour shifts are more difficult to do than on-call. When you have an on-call duty, you might not get any call at all during the night. However, a shift means you have to be awake during the night which is really bad.

If you're limiting yourself to co-located teams, sure. US is UTC-8 through UTC-5. Add someone in the EU or South Africa and you cover with someone that's on UTC through UTC+2. Australia, Japan, and SE Asia include UTC+7 through UTC+10. If you're set up for international remote work (or satellite offices), you can get things set up so that someone's always on duty.

Re: Developer on Call

#218

Post by cl0ne » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 11:00 PM UTC

always_good wrote: post #18

tigershark wrote: post #8

I have done it for 1 year and half and I’ll never, ever do it again. As I learnt, my sleep is worth much more than any amount of money.

I think I have some lasting trauma for the year I was on call. I still have nightmares that I'm getting woken up into a hellish situation to fix code I've never seen at 3am. Or that I'm out on a date or having a beer or trying to enjoy my life when I get called. I remember the constant state of anxiety just knowing I could be called. Couldn't even wind down watching a movie much less read a book. I quit when I realiz…

I did that for a few years, although your job sounds a bit more stressful than mine was most of the time. I never got paid extra, but the job had some nice perks.

I am way happier now that I don't have to carry my laptop with me 24/7 and worry about taking it out while on a date or running off to find a hallway or corner to sit in and do work during the middle of a movie or concert. Sometimes I'd even get an emergency phone call during my commute and have to pull off the freeway to work.

Re: Developer on Call

#219

Post by code_beers » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 11:00 PM UTC

web007 wrote: post #124

Hendrikto wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I largely believe developers should be responsible for their work Definitely > which includes meeting the support requirements out of hours Definitely not

Why not? Where does that responsibility end?

Why not? Because I’m paid for 40 hours, and I work 40 hours. Why aren’t mechanics pulled in at 2am to perform warranty work, if they originally fixed the car? Same reason, that would be ridiculous.

Where does the responsibility end? At me doing the best job possible under the circumstances, all that could be expected of a human being.

Re: Developer on Call

#220

Post by vinceguidry » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 11:04 PM UTC

logfromblammo wrote: post #152

cableshaft wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are absolutely contracts and people who don't treat them as such are just asking for trouble. I don't care what an employer tries to call it. Anything that has legal language and they're expecting me to sign my name on it is a legal contract and I treat it as such.

Every such paper I have received has explicitly noted the following, paraphrased: - This is not a contract; any contract with us must be signed by the CEO. (Paper is not signed by the CEO.) - You are an "at will" employee. The employment relationship may be ended at any time, by any party, for any reason, or no reason at all. There are no notice requirements, and any and all obligations of one party to the other are…

> - You are an "at will" employee. The employment relationship may be ended at any time, by any party, for any reason, or no reason at all. There are no notice requirements, and any and all obligations of one party to the other are severed at the moment of separation.

When I made my comment, I was trying to get a handle on just why Americans don't think of these as contracts, and the quoted bit is why I think. An employment contract, to an American, means, for whatever reason, probably because that's how Europeans do it, that the company can't just fire you.

The fact that should the agreement ever turn up in court, it's contract law that will be used to adjudicate it, just doesn't register. Probably because lawsuits are so far away from the American consciousness, something only big companies with huge budgets do with each other. Or ambulance chasers or other such grifters.