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NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

theguardian.com

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Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#211

Post by vesinisa »

mistersquid wrote: post #186
InitialLastName wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is really that the MTA is funded and controlled by the State of New York, while it predominantly serves the City of New York. Since the population (especially the voting population) of the city is Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless streetcars and ferries; they let him get out from under the thumb of the state.

>Since the population (especially the voting population) of the city is I did a quick and dirty check on Google for "new york state population" [0] and " "new york city population" [1] and the percentage I get is 43%. [0] https://imgur.com/a/2zkmdjm [1] https://imgur.com/a/904hwM2 EDIT: As did a few others, I read "<0.5" as "<0.5%".

.5 = ½ = 50%

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#212

Post by Zhenya »

r00fus wrote: post #199
tikhonj wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also interesting how people don't see public roads in the same way—people don't expect roads to cover their own expenses directly, expect free parking as a human right and bridle at toll roads or gasoline taxes. People need to see public transport as "roads that don't need cars".

One feeds into the petroleum economy and one doesn't. Guess which one is "preferred"?

The one that provides people (the illusion of) liberty through movement.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#213

Post by [deleted] »

siculars wrote: post #180
temp-dude-87844 wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't disagree with this sentiment, but it's worth pointing out that nearly all transportation projects from the "old days" around the world were done by private companies, and often met a swift end in bankruptcy. Creditors lost a lot, but the assets were then picked up by others, and refined through years of trial and error into endeavors of modest profitability. Only our sepia-colored glasses and the survival bia…

I'll take issue with your thesis. I was once standing in Marin county overlooking the Golden Gate bridge, there I read a plaque describing how the bridge was built ahead of schedule and under budget - in the 1930s (no computers!). Behind the Golden gate bridge in the distance you see the Bay bridge, built with tremendous cost overruns and delays measured in billions of dollars and many years, respectively. I'll make…

[deleted]

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#214

Post by Brakenshire »

DoubleGlazing wrote: post #151

The problem with urban transport systems is that no one sees them for what they really are... an expensive thing that drives the economy. There seems to be an obsession in the west with making public transport pay for itself, but the reality is that a few billion invested in better public transport results in a lot more billions being made elsewhere. We need to get away from this idea that public transport systems ne…

It’s not bad for the service to fund itself in ongoing costs, Transport for London is self-sufficient for instance, as long as the money goes back into the service. That’s a good discipline to maintain an efficient service. But agree that initial capital investments should be thought about in the way you’re discussing.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#215

Post by Endy »

MatekCopatek wrote: post #182
yholio wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, paying living wages to thousands of unnecessary workers is quite expensive, regardless if they are employees or contractors. Unions work on both goals simultaneously, increasing wages but also providing job security to their base, inserting strong restrictions on who can perform certain labors etc. The more employees, the higher the power of the union, it's not like a competitor could spring up and…

But isn't this exactly what you're supposed to do in capitalism? Use your privileged position in economy to earn money (by definition at the expense of other people)? Now, I agree that it's not a very moral position, but we don't expect property owners in SF to keep rents reasonable. They should charge as much as they can, that's the only thing that makes sense from a business perspective!

The thing about this is that the MTA and NYC Subway are NOT for-profit businesses. They're part of the public sector and shouldn't be held to a profit motive. Similarly, the Unions connected to City transportation should recognize that the system they're vampirically draining isn't about profit, and working for it should be in the mindset of a public service, not a 'get rich quick' scheme.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#216

Post by Endy »

untog wrote: post #207
ep103 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He means move to a commutable distance away : )

Better not go to New Jersey, those NJ Transit tunnels aren't up to much either!

No, but the PATH is pretty reliable and buses work - especially the Spanish bus. Every time I hear people complaining about the train into NYC I ask them why they don't either come to Passaic, Union City, or Hoboken and take an easier and faster (and often, less expensive!) alternative in.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#217

Post by woolvalley »

MFLoon wrote: post #166
asah wrote: post #66

serious q: what alternatives exist besides buses and taxi/rideshare? Is walking/scootering a material number of people? If not, why about taxing rideshares to fund the subway?

Most NYC residents don't have walkable commutes, especially those living in middle or lower income neighborhoods that are generally further from the city center. The city is too large, and not particularly pedestrian friendly in the outer boroughs. FWIW Biking has become more viable in recent years, with a good amount of bike lane coverage even in the outer boroughs, but that's still not viable for the less physicall…

Uber & others seem to be fine with a general congestion charge although, and actually seem to encourage it.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#218

Post by AngryData »

cynicalkane wrote: post #119
chadlavi wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying conductors a living wage isn't nearly as expensive to the agency (and the state, and we the taxpayers and riders) as mismanaged and corruptly nepotistic multi-billion dollar contracts for construction.

This is wrong in many ways. * Unionized workers make very good money in New York. * Unions are a primary political driver behind those expensive contracts. * There's more to unions than conductors. Construction and maintenance, for example. * The unions routinely put up strong opposition to any meaningful expense or quality control. They also strongly oppose any modernization attempts that might threaten their jobs.…

The only reason the union is untouchable is because anti-union legislation entrenched old unions by making new unions impossible. Get rid of anti-union laws, watch as people can now join a competing different union or make their own union under the same job. Then unions actually have to work to exist, rather than being co-opted by business managers who are only seeking to earn a profit for themselves with the actual workers making up the union having no choice other than pay or completely abandon unions altogether.

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#219

Post by andyburke »

joering2 wrote: post #204
cynicalkane wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is wrong in many ways. * Unionized workers make very good money in New York. * Unions are a primary political driver behind those expensive contracts. * There's more to unions than conductors. Construction and maintenance, for example. * The unions routinely put up strong opposition to any meaningful expense or quality control. They also strongly oppose any modernization attempts that might threaten their jobs.…

* Unionized workers make very good money in New York. I didn't believe a friend of mine who only finish college was making $218,000 a year basically for early morning train track cleanups (device to pickup trash, stay away from 3rd rail), until I saw his bi-weekly paycheck with my own eyes. He's been doing that for last 5 years and they hire more people to do the same. What an insult to anyone with MBA, PhD., anyone…

Maybe we should form a union?

Re: NYC subway and bus services have entered 'death spiral', experts say

#220

Post by zjaffee »

InitialLastName wrote: post #175
jkaplowitz wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ideas you're saying are quite common in the West, as you say, but that's not the attitude in NYC. Everyone realizes it's worth funding and fixing. The disputes are about the who, what, how, and paid by whom.

The issue is really that the MTA is funded and controlled by the State of New York, while it predominantly serves the City of New York. Since the population (especially the voting population) of the city is Hence why the NYC mayor is so intent on funding worthless streetcars and ferries; they let him get out from under the thumb of the state.

People keep saying that the street car will be worthless, but I simply don't buy it. It connects all of the fastest growing neighborhoods in the city, where there have been increasing large amounts of effort around economic development within the areas that these places connect, where it will massively increase the value and in turn ability to build real estate along the waterfront, as one of the key determiners of land value in NYC is access to transit.
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