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MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

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Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#211
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For engineers and artists, it's not really an issue. We want to see our best work appreciated, primarily. I want to be paid first. Everything else comes second. That doesn't not make me an engineer. It makes me a wise engineer. Money buys options and freedom. Prestige and other abstract concepts are used to steal your time and value.

Right, but you aren't going to raise hell if someone makes more money on your work than you did. That's not the attitude of a craftsman, but business folks think in terms of lost potential revenue and junk like that and thus are not above such things.

It's okay if they make 'more' money, but whenever an entity makes giant piles of money I wish there was a small mandatory royalty to the original creators.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#213

Okay so after reading the article, and thinking about this for a while, I get the following out of this debacle: The issue here is that SaaS providers are building tools on top of MongoDB that effectively add functionality, instead of modifying MongoDB (which would force them to share those changes publicly). This is a valid concern and I understand the motivation behind the license change. However, how is this diffe…

Disclosure: I work for MongoDB. You're in the right ballpark, for sure, but the SSPL addresses the difference explicitly. I'll use your example of Tumblr to clarify. Tumblr is built on some component technologies, like a database, an app framework, operating systems, backup systems, load balancing, etc. But Tumblr itself is not any of those things. Nor does it make any of its component technologies available to the p…

Technically, Tumblr provides persistence for ramblings and pictures and makes them available to the public. Tumblr is a brand wrapped around a database.

I could do the same thing with a worse UI by hosting MongoDB on an open port.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclosure: I work for MongoDB. Forcing droves of community users to buy commercial licenses is not the intention of the SSPL -- indeed, it cannot serve that function, as it does not obligate them to do anything at all unless they are making the licensed software itself available to the public as a service.

The problem with that statement is that it is your company's lawyers interpretation of what it is all intended to mean. Yet, it's not certified by the OSS foundation and there are now loads of articles trying to interpret what it all means, which suggests to me that this is not a clear cut case of this being all that clear at all. Either way, your company is trying to actively restrict how the software is used even f…

Much of what you say about the lack of clarity is fair, but we hope that those things will be resolved when the SSPL gains OSI certification. In the meanwhile, we will do our best to 1) listen closely to the specific arguments as to what is unclear, and 2) attempt to dispel what we see as misunderstandings, often prompted by what is essentially FUD.

I appreciate your suggestions on what other licensing options we have. I think you really get what we are trying to do. That strategy is exactly how MongoDB has sold its enterprise edition for years. With apologies if I'm pointing you to something you've already read, we think the current landscape of the tech industry makes that insufficient, as our CTO's announcement post goes into: https://www.mongodb.com/blog/post/mongodb-now-released-under...

Anyhow, I do want to address this:

> It creates all sorts of headaches. And conveniently your company's way to solve that is a commercial license.

I think this is unfair. Everything we have said about the SSPL makes clear that it has one very exclusive set of targets in mind: large scale cloud providers with the means to strip-mine not just MongoDB, but any open source project with significant traction. And the one actual data point in this conversation supports that position: fatbird posted that they were on a sales call with MongoDB recently, specifically asked if they were affected by the license change, and were told "no". Is that a legally binding rider to the SSPL? Of course, not, but if the plan for the SSPL was to use it to wring money out of community users, wouldn't the answer have been "yes"?

If you've already read that announcement post, or if you now do, would you let me know if it makes anything clearer?

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#215

Yeah, I'm not necessarily opposed to the general spirit of what they're trying to do here, but this license just doesn't make sense in practice. Now that I've had more time to look at it, I'd really recommend that everybody stay the f%!# away from MongoDB. This bit in particular really hits the nail on the head: Let's assume that it is ok somehow to pass forward other open source software, solving that problem. What…

> I’ve had more time to look at it, I'd really recommend that everybody stay the f%!# away from MongoDB.

That’s virtually the word-for-word conclusion that anyone who’s “has some time to look at mongoDB” has come to. It’s a steaming pile of feces, and this is no surprise. From day one, the mongo team has made it clear that they are a startup first (in the sense of “focus on wooing investors with buzzwords and making money”) and a software engineering firm last.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The FAQ we put out here makes that clear ...while the license itself absolutely does not. I can read the GPL and tell what's expected of me, but I have no idea how to interpret clauses like: > Making the functionality of the Program or modified version available to third parties as a service includes, without limitation, enabling third parties to interact with the functionality of the Program or modified version re…

Absolutely I understand. And you taking the time to articulate the issues is generous, and I appreciate that as well. I make no claim that the SSPL is as easy to understand as the GPL. It's not. IMO the GPL's domain is such that it's easier for it to capture its intention succinctly. Do you link your software to this library? No? You're in the clear. You do? Then your software has to be released under the GPL. The SS…

I disagree with your reasoning on much of that. That said, thank you for the detailed reply! I appreciate the extra context.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#217
Startup idea: A MongoDB as a Service company with the entire hosting/management platform written from scratch in Befunge or Brainfuck...

(VCs please form an orderly queue. Priority given to investors willing to pay in Bitcoin or Monero. Contact deets in profile...)

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#218

Yeah, I'm not necessarily opposed to the general spirit of what they're trying to do here, but this license just doesn't make sense in practice. Now that I've had more time to look at it, I'd really recommend that everybody stay the f%!# away from MongoDB. This bit in particular really hits the nail on the head: Let's assume that it is ok somehow to pass forward other open source software, solving that problem. What…

There are many arguments provided as justification for this new license - they seem specious in my opinion 1. Big cloud vendors are making money off MongoDB's investment Completely untrue. The big three - AWS, Azure and GCP dont have a MongoDB as a service solution. The only commercial entity making any real money off MongoDB is MongoDB, Inc. AGPL has achieved its purpose here. The only big cloud vendor with a soluti…

Also, print out and have notarized a copy of their current FAQ. It's probably legally binding for promissory estoppel. If their interpretation of the license suddenly becomes much stricter, it may be handy to prove that they promised you explicitly in writing that they intended the looser meaning.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#219
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just had a call with MongoDB sales yesterday, and specifically asked if the licence changes impacts us, where we use Mongo as a datastore for our application, but we're not offering Mongo itself as a service. They were very quick and clear to say that the change is about those providers offering Mongo itself as a service. Using mongo in your stack to provide your service is not implicated at all. The only grey area…

For now. Their intent can change. Or they can be bought by oracle. Always consider license changes based on the possibility of the company being bought by oracle, there should be a law about it!

Yes this also came up with my coworkers when we were discussing this. It's better to treat every software license as strict and malicious as possible because everyone can be eventually bought by Oracle and Oracle can sue you for misusing "their" license.

Re: MongoDB's Server Side Public License Is Likely Unenforceable

#220
post #84

Remind me of that one time when they went berserk on every tooling vendor using the name « Mongo » in their product name : RoboMongo,MongoGUI etc... they all received a legal notice to remove the name mongo from their product. This was probably one of the most evil thing have seen in the open source industry . Most of those vendors were open source with paid premium features or donation. After receiving their legal n…

Maybe Mel Brooks and/or the estate of Richard Pryor would like to capture some of that "Mongo" money.
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