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Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

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Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#211

Post by jopsen »

xxs wrote: post #175
DerJacques wrote: post #2

While the promise sounds great, it's important to note that no law has actually been passed. Also, incentives to increase sales of electric vehicles are yet to be announced. Denmark's Scandinavian neighbour Norway is on the other side of the spectrum. Heavy subsidisation has caused every 2nd (!) car sold to be electric ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-environment-norway-autos/... ).

Isn't it ironic that most of welfare and subsidies actually come from the oil. Stuff like 25km of under sea tunnel leading to a town with sub 2k population is quite a common sight there. While Norway is an amazing country in many aspects, the amount of oil owned by a state company puts it in a rather unique position.

Fair point, but I have a lot of respect for how Norway manages it's oil money..

State wealthfare fund and research in various techniques to minimize pollution from oil production.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#212

Post by anticensor »

olivermarks wrote: post #82
rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's more widely distributed than electricity?

Delivering high voltage to recharge the amperage these batteries need is a whole different grid in remote areas to delivering 240v for light bulbs and fridges. Separately Norway is one of the richest countries on the planet thanks to its offshore oil. Their sovereign fund dwarfs Saudi Arabia in comparison so maybe they currently can cannibalize that revenue to build a supergrid. China is building an ultra high voltag…

You could use train/tram/trolleybus grid for adequate voltages.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#213

Post by Symbiote »

lsiunsuex wrote: post #102
floatrock wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why the sadness? As a "Car Guy" I'm thrilled about electric! Instant torque and acceleration, way more responsive than ICE. Just the other month there was the story where an electric shattered all the previous Pikes Peak records: https://www.teslarati.com/vw-id-r-electric-vehicle-pikes-pea... I mean, yeah, it doesn't have the same growl, but if you want raw performance, I'll take my spaceship whirl over rube goldberg…

the growl / sound / smell. The ability to modify, upgrade, "wrench on a car on the weekend" the ability to get beat on the track 1 weekend, drop a couple grand on new parts the next, then go back and beat them the following weekend. car shows and seeing a super charged mustang or camaro or twin turbos or something completely different someone came up with an idea for and built. the same way us programmers tinker and…

> the growl / sound / smell.

(I'll be pleased when none of these (or the pollution) is within a city, but that's not my main point.)

> Playing with 240 volts of batteries (or whatever it is, lol) (if there's anything to play with) - not so much I'm thinking, lol...

An engineer friend spends all his spare time tweaking an electric motorcycle. There's a lot to control in software, and although there are far fewer components than an ICE bike, he has gradually upgraded them, or will change them for a particular performance characteristic.

Maybe he could ask why you feel so safe with flammable liquids and toxic combustion products.

(Equally, some of my father's friends maintain, repair and operate steam locomotives. Needing a railway makes this far more difficult than for cars, but it's not too difficult to find a similar group in England.)

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#214

Post by jopsen »

jimmaswell wrote: post #22
reacharavindh wrote: post #13

Wonder what it'd do to the resale value of cars even before 2030. Denmark with their famous 150% registration tax already has cars being used much longer than what I've seen in other countries. I'd love to see the 150% tax waived off for 100% electric cars that are not luxury vehicles. Set strict constraints for a common man car, and incentivize it turning electric. Also, think about the charging infrastructure....

I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate. The rest of Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples (memory isn't clear on if there was another member state that was even worse). One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doe…

On the environmental side keeping old cars longer actually makes sense. Because production of cars produces a lot of CO2.

But historically this was a trick to minimize the trade deficit, because we don't produce cars in Denmark.

Today, however, it's hard to get rid off this tax. Because you have to find the money, and as soon as you start talking about this tax people stop trading cars.

IMO, cars isn't where we need tax breaks it'll mean even more congestion in the roads. We need to invest the upcoming surpluses if you ask me.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#215

Post by jopsen »

Doctor_Fegg wrote: post #43
jimmaswell wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate. The rest of Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples (memory isn't clear on if there was another member state that was even worse). One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doe…

In the whole nation of Denmark, 26% of all sub-5km trips are by bike. In Portland, the US's most celebrated cycle city, 6.3% of commuter journeys are by bike. It looks to me like Denmark has it right; and that taxing polluting vehicles (you know, there's this thing called climate change?) is perhaps a better strategy than sneeringly calling them "clown cars".

Also it means less congestion on the roads, because there are fewer cars.

If most middle class families can get by with just one car, maybe that's good for everyone.

Note. Today cheaper cars and high incoming means many families have two cars.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#216

Post by jopsen »

reacharavindh wrote: post #80
jimmaswell wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never understood how anyone possibly felt the ridiculously extremist state of affairs of automobile/fuel regulations/taxes/etc in Denmark is appropriate. The rest of Europe isn't that great either but Denmark is one of or the most insane examples (memory isn't clear on if there was another member state that was even worse). One of the things that makes me grateful to live in the USA - owning and operating a car doe…

I wrote the comment you responded to. I live in Denmark, and here is my take on this. It's not as extreme that I'd call it "extremist state of affairs". Fewer cars are for the greater good. However, what pisses me the most is how it is really implemented. There is the famous 150% tax when you buy a car, and then there is a green tax every 6 months/quarter that is based on how efficient &a safe your car is. I'm all fo…

Agreed, the tax is not ideal. It's better than nothing..

But it would be even better if we somehow could tax households higher for their second car.

In practice it's probably an administrative nightmare with too many loopholes.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#217

Post by dwaltrip »

amluto wrote: post #115
munificent wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems to me that if you tax emissions strongly and uniformly enough, then at some point it has to have an impact. One way to look at that is that you're saying any market-based solution strong enough to be effective is indistinguishable from an outright ban. We could, for example, discourage smoking by putting a $500 tax on each pack of cigarettes. But at that point, you may as well stop pretending and ban it ou…

> One way to look at that is that you're saying any market-based solution strong enough to be effective is indistinguishable from an outright ban. I'm not sure I agree. I could easily imagine a range of carbon taxes applied to vehicles where most, but not all, users would switch to electric. There could easily be people who like taking long trips far from major roads and are willing to pay a large premium to do so. >…

> If a small number of rich people are willing to pay $100 in extra taxes to smoke a cigarette, is that really so bad?

What is the rational to "letting" the rich smoke (replace with activity "X" if desired), but not everyone else?

For the most part, that is what the policy effectively ends up doing, and so enacting it becomes to an implicit approval of that result.

It's obviously not the only way of looking at the situation, but I think it has some merit. Interesting to think about, at least.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#218

Post by ben_w »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #123
ben_w wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worldwide, transport energy use is about 150% total electricity use — 30PWh/y vs. 20PWh/y. I’m not saying we can’t upgrade production (I’m actually significantly more optimistic than the best case IAE estimates), but it’s not as trivial as just installing some new wires and transformers.

You could have a solar farm and some batteries close to each stations. It's not trivial but it isn't a bottleneck either.

When I ran the numbers for the USA, it was something along the lines of adding a 1m wide strip of normal efficiency PV alongside the entire length of the interstate network. I’ve not looked at the size of any other highway system relative to population density but I do know that Denmark gets less sunlight than the USA average.

Like I said in my original comment: I’m optimistic, I just don’t think it’s trivial.

To put it another way, I think it’s something that requires a government rather than being achievable purely with the private sector. That might mean just incentives and template plans, or it might require government to commission things, but it’s that sort of scale.

Re: Denmark to ban petrol and diesel car sales by 2030

#219

Post by dijit »

quickben wrote: post #180
majewsky wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such as? If you're saying "range", I counter that most trips (e.g. most commutes) are well within the range limits of current BEVs.

Such as commuting an hour to work, that may turn out to be two, in Toronto's gridlock, during a cold wave of -45c. "Most trips" doesn't work, the EV proponents want a ban on all ICE cars. Which would force part of the population to buy a truck and commute with it.

>Which would force part of the population to buy a truck and commute with it.

I think this is a symptom of a larger problem and despite the fact that people have this issue as of now should not strongly colour our perception of what's possible.

If you're commuting more than 2hrs to work by car then not only are you wasting a large percentage of your own life, but you're also harming the environment. It should not be a "given" that it's A) normal, B) done by a large portion of the population, C) hampering the endeavours to adopt vehicles that allow for a more sustainable energy acquisition.

Losing the ability to do a road trip? yeah, I buy that as a concern. But if you're one of the people affected by the range limitations of current EV's for commuting (one-way) then I have nothing but pity for you and I sincerely hope you either enjoy it or that your life improves (not being condescending, I really hope it gets better for you)

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