Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support • Hacker News Board

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#211

Post by JamesBarney » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 4:07 AM UTC

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

Asians make up 22% of the harvard class(with the current quota system), and are 6% of the U.S. population.

I don't think eliminated legacy based admissions or increasing school funding would bring this number down.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#212

Post by InfiniteBeing » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 4:44 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #206

themgt wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article/issue is about non-white applicants (Asian Americans) who are being discriminated against in the admissions process. And not just at Harvard but other elite schools, med schools, etc. It's bizarre how many comments here are focusing on traditional white vs. black issues when this is entirely about a non-white group who is being discriminated against under affirmative action because their superior test sc…

It is in fact not difficult to explain carceral inequality through the prism of white supremacy, as "whiteness" is a fluid concept largely defined in specific opposition to "black" people; historically, it's adapted as needed to embrace formerly "non-white" people (the Irish, Italians, Jewish people) in solidarity against encroaching black people (for instance, during the Great Migration). A useful thing to keep in m…

White is still very synthesized as European Americans generally have mixed ancestral origins.

I don't foresee Asians being seen as white people. Their origins are much different than the Irish, Italian and even Jewish cases.

Perhaps certain people such as yourself would do so as an adjustment to allow you to continue viewing through your same prism rather than getting a new prism.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#213

Post by flukus » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 5:01 AM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #47

40acres wrote: post #7

This argument, while important, is the low hanging fruit of the affirmative action debate in my opinion. We would not need affirmative action if legacy based admissions wasn't so prevalent in top schools. We would not need affirmative action if every school district in America recieved proper funding to support teachers and enable smaller class sizes, test prep for students to take specialized exams, and after school…

"The best elementary schools in the nation are driven by property taxes, how many people do you know bought their house because of the school district?" Sometimes I wonder how much of this is everyone mistaking causation vs. correlation. School districts with high property taxes tend to have a number of other features in common, like: stable 2-parent households; high incomes; ability to afford private tutors and enri…

> Does anyone know of studies that have tried to tease out how much effect the educational system actually has on student outcomes, once you've controlled for parental wealth/intelligence/education/etc?

I don't know about studies but if you look beyond American borders there are countries where schools are funded at the state and/or national level rather than the local one. There is some correlation with poorer areas having worse results despite identical funding but overall the results are much more even, schools in poorer areas can even be in the top results from time to time, even beating out top tier private schools.

It's not perfect, schools in "problem" areas tend to be where freshly graduated teachers go for a tour of duty before moving elsewhere, but it's still in improvement.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#214

Post by fipple » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 5:07 AM UTC

monetus wrote: post #96

fipple wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is such a well known fact that calling it unsourced is like calling a claim that the sun rises in the east unsourced. https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/107-children-in...

And to make things even worse, they don't have the same electoral potential. Stripping voting rights from felons is incredibly immoral, IMO. http://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/felon-v...

Unequal enforcement of the law is certainly a major problem, but I have no objections to excluding from governance oversight those people who refuse to comply with that governance.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#215

Post by tptacek » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 5:12 AM UTC

InfiniteBeing wrote: post #212

tptacek wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is in fact not difficult to explain carceral inequality through the prism of white supremacy, as "whiteness" is a fluid concept largely defined in specific opposition to "black" people; historically, it's adapted as needed to embrace formerly "non-white" people (the Irish, Italians, Jewish people) in solidarity against encroaching black people (for instance, during the Great Migration). A useful thing to keep in m…

White is still very synthesized as European Americans generally have mixed ancestral origins. I don't foresee Asians being seen as white people. Their origins are much different than the Irish, Italian and even Jewish cases. Perhaps certain people such as yourself would do so as an adjustment to allow you to continue viewing through your same prism rather than getting a new prism.

People such as myself and everyone who's written a scholarly article or magazine essays about when and how Asians have/will become "white"? Because, like I said, this isn't my idea.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#216

Post by jsoc815 » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 5:17 AM UTC

themgt wrote: post #113

40acres wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great point and I'm glad you brought this up. Like I mentioned, America has many gaping wounds which I believe can be traced back to institutional racism. When talking about the prevalence of black kids raised under single family homes we have to take into account why these kids may be raised that way. Is it a character flaw of black families? I don't think so. I'm black and familial ties run DEEP in almost every fam…

This article/issue is about non-white applicants (Asian Americans) who are being discriminated against in the admissions process. And not just at Harvard but other elite schools, med schools, etc. It's bizarre how many comments here are focusing on traditional white vs. black issues when this is entirely about a non-white group who is being discriminated against under affirmative action because their superior test sc…

Advance TLDR; See previous post from a few months ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17335887) or continue below...

> It's bizarre how many comments here are focusing on traditional white vs. black issues when this is entirely about a non-white group...

Actually, it's not bizarre at all. In fact, the long unsettled distraction of "black" vs. "white" is entirely what this whole dust-up is about. And while the particular case being litigated involves "Asian" students, the people/group funding the suit are non-Asian, IIRC. In fact, I believe they(the funders) actually did something of a casting call to find their plantiff(s), which isn't altogether uncommon. This case, ties into the previous anti-affirmative action cases that did not deliver the desired death blow. I don't have time (or interest really) to dig up old articles and such, but you shouldn't have any difficulty validating what I'm saying here if you are interested in doing so.

Also, there isn't much concern about Asian students who perform well on the requisite tests outnumbering other groups. The concern is about their outnumbering one group. W/all due respect, this should be pretty clear to anyone who understands the historical mission(s)-- which aren't all that different from those of current-- of such elite institutions. It's even clearer if one reads a little history (of the schools or broader society, your choice).

With respect to your question(s) about institutional racism, I'm not sure if you ask in earnest or are being rhetorical, so I beg forgiveness in advance. The simple fact of the matter is that the whole issue consists of many moving parts and circumstances. You say "Asian", but who are we even really talking about? That's a pretty diverse population. And it doesn't consist solely, or even mostly, of superior performers. All of the dysfunctions that many like to label as being exclusively 'Black' or (maybe) 'Hispanic' can easily be found among "Asians", too. And we still haven't even gotten to talking about which "Asians" from "Asia" are here and how they got here, or why.

> What are these Asian applicants supposed to do...

1) Question whether their understanding of admissions criteria is correct;

If they believe that their understanding of the admissions criteria is correct (I don't believe that it is based on personal experience/inside knowledge and research), and they believe that they meet the criteria for admission, then...

2) Start asking some very tough questions about why the bar is lower for everyone else; or

3) Opt out and do their own thing instead of seeking validation from, and validating, a system that for whatever reason(s) doesn't seem to value them appropriately.

Again, the entire issue is pretty complex, far more so than I've ever seen anyone here make it out to be. Which is why I hope you'll actually check out the video in the linked post.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#217

Post by tartoran » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 6:48 AM UTC

uhohnotgood wrote: post #207

tartoran wrote: post #193

This is totally against "test takers". Knowing the rules will make them better at taking tests but Harvard wants to be about something else. I may sure be downvoted to say that from my experience asians are the great test takers, and gotta also add that they have amazing rote memory, one of the best imho.

Please don't perpetuate stereotypes like this. This sentence has a clear discriminatory undertone implying that asians are less capable of creative/critical thinking.

You just said this in one of your comments : "Unless one is going to argue that there are no genetic differences between individuals in the brain, it seems unlikely to me that different races don't have different brains in some fashion."

Then I may ask, if you think different races have different brains , how can you argue against statements on traits by calling them stereotypes? I wasn't implying creativity, It was more general than that, and there's no better one than other.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#218

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 7:05 AM UTC

hackinthebochs wrote: post #197

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not the case that the person with the higher GPA/SAT necessarily has more leadership potential. And somehow these "lacking in leadership potential" students happen to be Asian more often than the norm? Year after year? Seems like a convenient coincidence.

You're missing the point. There is no way to quantify leadership potential and so they have to come up with various heuristics. One heuristic is being an outlier in some socially/politically relevant cluster. That is, group people by various factors such as race, income, region, etc. Those who are outliers of those groups are likely to have leadership potential: whatever drove them to succeed where others failed in s…

> One heuristic is being an outlier in some socially/politically relevant cluster. That is, group people by various factors such as race, income, region, etc.

Then, pray tell, which lack of "being an outlier in some socially/politically relevant cluster" is common to Asian applicants, year after year? I'm sure we would all be fascinated to hear the specific areas in which Asian applicants are failing to match these heuristics where other minority applicants do.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#219

Post by bobmarley1 » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 3:10 PM UTC

sdinsn wrote: post #194

bobmarley1 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually not at all clear if it's legal hence the court battle. In fact AA is literally legalized discrimination that benefits Minorities so you really don't know what you are talking about.

The use of gender and racial quotas in University admissions is unconstitutional, decided by the Supreme Court case Gratz v. Bollinger in 2003.

Sorry but that doesn't really have bearing on the Harvard case, the decision upheld that scoring systems and quotas are unconstitutional.

Of course you seem to be ignoring Regents of the University of California v. Bakke 1978 that ruled that race could be used as a factor in admissions but struck down quotas.

In fact Grutter v. Bollinger in 2003 Sandra Day O'Connor wrote the majority opinion that the Constitution "does not prohibit the law school's narrowly tailored use of race in admissions decisions to further a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body."

Hmm sounds like Harvard's argument. So the law is not nearly as clear as you make it out to be.

Re: Asian-American Students Suing Harvard Over Admissions Win Justice Dept. Support

#220

Post by bobmarley1 » Fri, Aug 31, 2018, 3:12 PM UTC

dunpeal wrote: post #203

sdinsn wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The use of gender and racial quotas in University admissions is unconstitutional, decided by the Supreme Court case Gratz v. Bollinger in 2003.

Indeed. Harvard's legal argument isn't that they are racially discriminating and that it's legal. They know it's not. Their argument is what you'd expect from an institution that is racially discriminating, but trying to weasel out of its culpability: they try to hide their systematic bias in the most subjective and ambiguous candidate score - the "personality" ratings. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/25/opinion/harv…

>Harvard's legal argument isn't that they are racially discriminating and that it's legal. They know it's not.

Grutter v. Bollinger 2003 Sandra Day O'Connor wrote the majority opinion that the Constitution "does not prohibit the law school's narrowly tailored use of race in admissions decisions to further a compelling interest in obtaining the educational benefits that flow from a diverse student body."