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A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

theguardian.com

211–220 of 220 posts

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#211
post #61

A lot of this seems ridiculous: > Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The baseline percentage of the population which experience depression (and other mental illness) each year is known to be pretty high -- and highest in for people in their 20's. One third sounds fairly normal; at any rate, there is a burde…

The Bologna system, adopted almost uniformly in rhe EU and other European countries, has three levels of university degrees: Bachelor, 3 full time years; Masters, Bachelor + 2 years or rarely high school + 5 years without an intermediate Bachelor; PhD, Master + 2-4 years, but mostly 3 years. Integrated Master + PhD degrees are extremely rare.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#212
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting aside the fact that this is clearly untrue, what does it have to do with the parent or GP comment?

By Europe I meant 'mainland Europe', where it is very exceptional to get hired in any PhD position without a masters. So you've already taken 5 years of classes, which is what the gp was talking about. Very few continental PhD's will be taking any classes.

GP assumes with no reason the "starting from an undergraduate degree", where the article is quoting 5 years for the PhD only, not for masters + PhD.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apply straight to a PhD program. Don't pay for a graduate degree.

I disagree. A Masters with thesis is more directed, a good way to learn how to do research, and not hinged on a novel contribution for a successful defense. My PhD went much faster and smoother because I had learnt the ropes and decided it was something worth doing. I think part of the problem is people jumping straight into PhD without any research experience. I watched quite a few students struggle when taking this…

In my experience PhD candidates always get paid, and Masters don't. They do sometimes, but you aren't priority and guaranteed. I do always suggest getting the Masters on the way though. 5 years is a long time, and if you decide it isn't for you, well you come out with something (and it was paid).

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#214

I think changing the PhD system is a great target, but how can you identify that as the culprit without changing the professoriate/tenure system?

That system has already changed. Tenure tracks are largely phasing out as older professors retire. They are being replaced with part-time adjunct teaching positions, supplemented by big name researchers that bring in grant money and institutions can write marketing articles about. Those big names are not incentivized to stay by a tenure system, as they can easily accept positions at other institutions or in private i…

Can you give me a few examples of major universities that have moved/are moving to this system?

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the way that STEM is taught, free thinking is often discouraged, and the 'freaks' leave academia as soon as possible or become conformist. This is not a new thing, Einstein was mocked for his free thinking ideas.

If that's the case, what is a non STEM bachelors degree that you would recommend for 'freaks'?

Philosophy.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's the case, what is a non STEM bachelors degree that you would recommend for 'freaks'?

Philosophy.

Why philosophy? Additionally, some notable ceo's (Peter Thiel, Sergio Marchionne) also pursued philosophy degrees. Are philosophy degrees prevalent in c-suite exectives, and if so, why?

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that the problem of selecting which research to fund is difficult and (usually but not always) subjective. While a very interesting question, it's not actually relevant to what I was arguing. I'm getting the impression that you didn't understand one of my points, so I'll restate it in more detail. > While this is an admirable academic exercise, is it better than any other study that produces in the end a more…

> When a purchaser, who doesn't know the difference between good technology and garbage, orders "good technology," he will always get garbage. That may be perfectly right but I think we're both right only when taking it to an extreme. A purchaser might as well understand the technology very well. Just as a researcher could be a manager at some point. The problem lies with "pure" researchers and bureaucrats. They will…

> And yes, bureaucrats don't trust the researchers with their money. It's because a manager investing in research is like a bet with long odds, where you don't know what exactly you're betting on, and the bookie is a gambler himself. [...] The manager is happy if his investment was worth it in terms of time and money.

Wiener has an entire chapter on this. Research is a gamble by its nature and will rarely ever appear to be a good investment to a bureaucrat or manager. As I recall, Wiener seemed to want to move away from this model towards funding individual researchers with good track records, for this reason and also because management often does not understand what's important. While I do want to provide value to industry, I don't expect them to fund my research because they seem to be allergic to math in my field.

You also seem to be confusing research with development. If someone is asking for a manor, that's not research in my view. If someone is asking for a structure with certain properties and it's not obvious what the answer is immediately, that's research. Research often returns unexpected answers even when done intellectually honestly.

> Every one of my former colleagues learned to sell their knowledge in terms of benefits a manager understand. It's easier for you to understand their language than for them to understand yours.

I try, but it's frustrating when most industry folks lose interest you once you mention basically any math. As you've said, it's a learned skill, which I'm still learning. There are no guarantees, unfortunately.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#218
post #43

>This new PhD would see students go out into the field and talk to practitioners from day one of their research I don't think this applies well to all fields of study. I have my Ph.D. in physics and there are loads of people researching problems that don't really have counterparts "in the field." I'm assuming "in the field" means industry or possibly a government service. I would think the same is true for mathematic…

> I certainly have gripes with academia but I don't think there is a monolithic motivation for students. Well, there is chasing funding. In your area of the universe, does the money follow worthwhile problems?

No and I'm having a hard time articulating what I mean. First, I am no longer in academia. :) I left because it felt a lot like an extension of government. I am not a fan of how the funding operates at all.

I was trying to say that I believe there is value or at least there can be value in the advancement of human understanding without it being tied to a social or business outcome. It seemed that the main thesis of this article was implicitly denying that value by stating that Ph.D.'s should be required to show the real-world impact of their work.

As others said, the Ph.D. students themselves don't really "chase funding" but their options are a result of chased funding, I suppose.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#219
post #61

A lot of this seems ridiculous: > Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The baseline percentage of the population which experience depression (and other mental illness) each year is known to be pretty high -- and highest in for people in their 20's. One third sounds fairly normal; at any rate, there is a burde…

> The baseline percentage of the population which experience depression (and other mental illness) each year is known to be pretty high -- and highest in for people in their 20's. One third sounds fairly normal; at any rate, there is a burden here to show that this is an exceptional proportion.

There has been a study in Belgium that showed that Grad students had a relative risk of psychological disorder scored according to a questionnaire used to decide whether psychological/psychiatric care is needed were about 5x times more at risk than the general population, even when matched for the age, education attainment and several other known common confounding factors for mental health disorders. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S004873331...

> If you are starting from an undergraduate degree, you probably need at least two years to take the PhD intro classes. One year to start a research program might work in a subject like the author's where your papers are chats about social implications, but there are plenty of subjects where even the data collection is going to take longer than that.

In Germany, you need a master's to start a PhD, as such your classes load is minimal...

> Being a professor is only one possible goal and for some fields, it isn't even the primary one.

Not according to the professors mentoring you. That's changing, but the normal consideration is that if you are not on a tenure track, you are a failure. If you acknowledge it, quite often you will lose the support of your PI and your peers.

Re: A PhD should be about improving society, not chasing academic kudos

#220
post #14

When you look at the stats, it’s hard not to conclude that the current PhD system is fundamentally broken. Mental health issues are rife: approximately one-third of PhD students are at risk of having or developing a psychiatric disorder like depression. The high level of dropouts is similarly worrying – and possibly another symptom of the same problem. Research suggests that on average 50% of PhD students leave gradu…

Also, professors are so often in no position to offer genuine advice. They often have massive conflicts of interest which they do not disclose: funding sources, requirements, and plans.

This. This describes my entire undergrad experience.
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