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Six Months at Riot Games

meagan-marie.tumblr.com

211–220 of 272 posts

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a million power imbalances in society and gender isn't close to the most important, it's just the most discussed. The real wage gap when you control for time worked and job choice is tiny. Ask yourself this - would you consider your child more lucky to be an ugly, short boy or a pretty girl? Or a boy and you have 20k a year to bring him up vs a girl and you have 50? Walking around furious as a good looking…

> "A senior staff member proceeded to repeatedly call me sexist for not being willing to room with a man I’d never met before. At first, I thought he was kidding, but he continued to make arguments to his point. I explained why I would be more comfortable sharing a room with another woman, and told him I wasn’t enjoying the conversation and would leave if I was continued to be called sexist. The conversation continue…

I think you have to look at the quote in the context of the situation, she'd already antagonized the whole company in her first 6 months by throwing probably the most explosive political grenade that you can. Her manager clearly wasn't trying to make her room with him, he's trying to hit her with what he sees as "her own philosophy" given that he thinks she's a SJW. I don't really agree with his point but you can see the argument, a lot of modern feminism starts from the assumption that there are zero differences between men and women, you can draw a line from that to "you should room with anyone we're all identical any discrimination/segregation is bad". I don't agree with it but it's just a stupid political argument he's having with her, it's not in any form sexual harassment. If he'd booked himself into a room with her, that would be sexual harassment.

If you have a low level ongoing argument with your manager it's going to get rough at some point. My whole point was that the article is very thin on specific bad experiences and mostly about her own reaction to third party conversations within earshot.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#212
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a number of studies that show that implementing new guidelines / yearly rote training is about the least effective thing you can do to change corporate culture. The most effective tends to be non-adversarial, regular peer meetings where actual discussions can be had. And yet every enterprise I've ever worked at has the same canned training systems. Or implements them in response to an incident.

Do companies care about being effective or care about covering their liability?

The company doesn't have to care for certain specific/influential people at the company to care and make healthy culture.

Company culture is it's employees, All the way from CEO to janitor.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#214
post #50
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're only directing their hostility at the ""other"". All this shittiness doesn't affect their straight white male devs (the majority), so they can function just fine. Game devs tend to be gamers who've reached adulthood but would like to stay within the gaming culture. That means they're either acclimatized to or actively enjoy the shittiness. All this stuff used to be "standard business culture" in the West, and…

>They're only directing their hostility at the ""other"". All this shittiness doesn't affect their straight white male devs (the majority), so they can function just fine. I don't think that's entirely true. even if they use sexual and racial slurs, it's apparent from the article that they are used as insults directed at each other. I'm a white hetero male developer (not game-dev though) myself, and I'm not sure I'd…

They aren't calling their fellow white males "crackers". By using such slang intended as an insult, there is an implication that the "other" is "lesser"

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#215
This is just so prevalent. I thank God for being able to work with family that has my back. I've become rather cynical about the whole thing. It feels like the only way to avoid that is to have the power to do so. Otherwise it's an uphill battle you cannot win.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#216
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s more that you shouldn’t use that word in the first place — it doesn’t matter if your friends are gay or not; the fact it’s a hateful insult that tells gay men they are lesser is enough. Imagine the young little gay kid who hears “f\ t” screamed 20 times an hour — how will that make him feel for the rest of his life? Are you just cementing in his head that it’s wrong to be gay? I hate to say it, but the days of a…

Who’s the “we’re”? I don’t agree with YouTube banning Alex Jones and numerous gun channels. I’ll probably cancel my YouTube red subscription over it. 25 years ago you would find the KKK show on NYC public access cable. A round table of guys in hoods, with an AK-47 table piece, talking about African Jews. That was there due to governments freedom of speech protections. Government is now turning a blind eye while corpo…

> If I were the FCC, I’d be shutting down YouTube.

Why? I get why public access would have a mandate to allow people with unpopular (imo hateful) opinions on the air, but not YouTube.

I was under the impression, they're a private network and under no obligation to allow you to post content they don't like. They are free to change their ToS at anytime and ban who they choose, right?

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#217

I'm a male software developer that cringes hard when hearing things like that, and I can't imagine using that sort of language in the workplace. In fact I'm part of an all male team at work and things like that get thrown around all day long, and I find it annoying at times. At the same time I detest the forced political correctness. And most of the time, all of those terms aren't actually hateful, but used in an pla…

> people should be free to express themselves in whatever way they choose to, and this way of communication clearly works for certain groups of people

Sure. In non-professional capacities. But in professional areas, we expect a bit of blandness so everyone feels welcome.

While some groups might be comfortable mocking or using language that people deem derogatory towards minorities, women, different cultures, different sexual orientations, etc., we've decided that their preferred communication type does not trump the right of a person to feel safe and respected at work. If they'd like to be foul with their own sort outside of work, whatever, people who don't appreciate it can avoid them.

Quitting my job to avoid feeling attacked, on the other hand, is an unreasonable burden placed on someone just so some dude can say bitch, fggot, and/or ngger or comment on someone's physical appearance.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#218

Interesting that this one is doing well compared to the longer in-depth kotaku article a few days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17710188 - fwiw that piece has since been corroborated by a ton of former riot employees on twitter. At the risk of sounding overly cynical, this is all true and everyone knows about it, people feign disgust at these articles but we're all complicit and understanding that this is…

I'm sorry to hear that this is the way things are for you. I've never worked at a company with this kind of culture, and would leave one in an instant. This is disgusting, and shouldn't be the way things are.

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#219
post #25
post #19

LoL has to be one of the most toxic communities for any game I've played. It's not shocking that it permeates the culture of the company that created it.

It is shocking. It was completely unheard of behavior at S2 Games. I was shocked to even be in the same market segment.

Except for the CEO?

Re: Six Months at Riot Games

#220
post #166
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kay. What are the odds that some HN commenters are going to solve the same problem that has been an active priority for years of the people in the field? I can’t speak for Valve or Riot, but at S2 it was a concerning issue. There’s just no good way to do it when the people involved are actively malicious. If you think there is, get ready to have your community collapse around you as everyone complains about unfair ba…

I absolutely appreciate the scale of the problem, and the adversarial nature of peer reporting. My day job has those same characteristics. Millions of games per week * 30 minutes per game * avg lines of chat per minute = manageable w/ a proper streaming architecture Especially when you have access to a massive, perfectly-scaled, distributed edge compute system . (i.e. running minimal, performance-optimized models on…

On the base level, it is not very hard to examine a chat log and glean who is being blatantly toxic from the log.

A big problem with games like League of Legends or Dota 2 is that you can easily be toxic or cause your teammates to be toxic without chatting or using voice comms.

There are very common trolling methods that do not require any use of chat with the express purpose of trying to incite toxicity in other players, some blatant, and some not.

However, the bigger problem is that honest mistakes can be misinterpreted by your teammates as toxicity:

Losing a close 1v1 vs your laning opponent

vs

Accidentally going too deep into enemy territory and dying once.

vs

Getting killed while attempting to secure map control for your team.

Vs

Playing too aggressively and overextending and dying many times over the course of a game.

When things like this happen, your own teammates may become upset at your poor performance and begin to lash out.

The biggest problem here is that in these games, it can feel like you have no agency over the outcome of the game when your teammates do not perform at the perceived skill level you have of them.

This is where toxic players become hard to deal with. They will start doing things that will incite toxicity in their teammates while maintaining plauisble deniability:

- Confusing teammates by providing useless or inaccurate information about the current gamestate. (Pinging, map calls, cooldowns, timers, etc - many of these require no use of chat of voice comms)

- Picking on teammates by making consistently selfish plays to their detriment.(Courier stealing, going out of one's way to steal farm from a lower position teammate, unnecessary kill stealing)

- Improper role identification, your team strategically expects you to do X, you do Y. Y could even be better than X in terms of winning the game, it doesn't matter.

All of these above examples can either be common gameplay mistakes or intentionally malicious, but the point is that once your teammates do not trust one another, some will start verbally abusing, while others will begin to make similar mistakes as above (tilting) and lose the game for their own team.

Many players want to feel like they were the influencing factor that decided the game's outcome, and make choices that increase the influence they have on the game even if it might actually lower the chances that they win - and this is what many times leads to toxicity.

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