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A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

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Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#211

Post by kqr »

nickserv wrote: post #190
21 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Why do you think this is a bad think? This is how kids learn how the world works, by trying the same thing in different contexts, like how small children put everything in their mou…

My worry with toddlers and touch interfaces is precisely because at that age they should be exploring the world, touching, tasting, smelling, feeling... By exposing them to something that doesn't react to the laws of physics, I fear they get a wrong first impression of the world, that at an early age they are not able to distinguish the difference between a book and a representation of one. I'm not against tablets, j…

> By exposing them to something that doesn't react to the laws of physics, I fear they get a wrong first impression of the world, that at an early age they are not able to distinguish the difference between a book and a representation of one.

I'm not friends with how you casually throw the word "wrong" in there, as if it was an unquestionable universal agreement.

Transport yourself (by vessel of imagination) to a future where this toddler is 30 years old, and both you and this toddler-no-more are bidding for a project: a customer is going to write a neat piece of software dealing with technical spec sheets, but they need someone to do the interaction design for it. Of course, it's going to run on the next-next-next-next-next gen touch surfaces which is what is available at the time.

You both present your solutions to the customer, and after a few weeks they call you up to say, "Please don't get us wrong. Your interface was really good. We decided to go with the ex-toddler anyway. They had similar ideas to yours, it's just that yours felt a bit tied to the Newtonian laws of physics. The toddler seemed to think more freely about the medium and used that for good.

"We fear that, given your age, you have gotten a wrong first impression of digital interfaces. You seem to have problems distinguishing the difference between what we call a book these days, and one of those old objects made from dead trees."

I'm not saying it's good either, I'm saying it's different. And while the toddler perspective may look wrong with your 20th century eyes, it could very well be that your perspective looks wrong with the toddlers 21st century eyes.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#212

Post by griffordson »

ezoe wrote: post #209

This situation is not caused by complicated Japanese input methods. This is caused by young generation who don't use traditional computer with the keyboard. It's another digital divide. Yes. The generation who didn't have a personal computer in their young age is starting to retire. Current 30s-40s years old workers are varies on computer literacy but many had a personal computer when they were a student. I belong to…

What percentage of PC users has ever installed an OS of any kind, ever?

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#213

Post by egypturnash »

nickserv wrote: post #9

Do your children a favor and get them a "real" computer with keyboard and mouse, instead of a tablet. I've found it helps with several things. For one, I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Also, learning to use a keyboar…

> I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces.

Recently I started reading actual paperbacks again after a few years doing most of my reading on a tablet; I was quite amused to find that sometimes I'd try to swipe the pages instead of turning them.

I'm in my forties. My first computer was in 1981. I've got decades of interacting via keyboard behind me and this still happened to me. Habit is a powerful thing.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#214

Post by UncleEntity »

ssivark wrote: post #54
nickserv wrote: post #9

Do your children a favor and get them a "real" computer with keyboard and mouse, instead of a tablet. I've found it helps with several things. For one, I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Also, learning to use a keyboar…

Kids should be weaned off tablets just like infants are weaned off milk and induced to use their teeth. The thing that really bothers me is, as Alan Kay says: The ipad interface is designed for 2-year-olds and 82-year-olds and being forced upon everyone in between. See, eg: https://www.fastcompany.com/40435064/what-alan-kay-thinks-ab... It is a de-evolution of problem-solving culture in the sense that people are disc…

> While that does simplify computers so that more people can use it in the short-term, it also strips away the whole purpose of computing, which is to empower people with a more advanced tool.

Back in Sumeria they used to go on and on about how this newfangled writing thing would destroy civilization because it took the personal element out of interpersonal communication.

Just because the majority of people don't concern themselves with learning the intimate details of how a computer works doesn't in any way imply their lives aren't "empowered" through their interactions with one. Having the world's knowledge at one's fingertips (or voice prompt) is arguably a lot more valuable than having the requirement to construct a complex query to find out where writing was invented.

You can lead a horse to water...

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#215

Post by cbr »

dooglius wrote: post #10

>Given that they can write and submit their school reports with smartphones Would students really do this? I couldn't imagine trying to write an entire essay or a lab report on a smartphone. Maybe Japanese schools don't have to turn in longer things like that?

Japanese isn't as well suited to a keyboard as English is; a smartphone and keyboard are about equally fast for typing Japanese.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#216

Post by kqr »

disqard wrote: post #200
actsasbuffoon wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m in my mid-thirties, and I have definitely tried to swipe my MacBook Pro screen a few times. I don’t think it’s an indication of anything troubling. Sometimes you just get lost in what you’re reading and momentarily forget what device you’re using. If anything, I’m glad teens are so absorbed by reading. It was a struggle to get the teens of my generation to read anything!

A little older than you (prolly couple of years). I remember how when I was a teen and coding a lot inside the Turbo C IDE, it became second nature to press F2 frequently (to save). Around that time, while working on math homework (on paper), I'd occasionally experience brain farts, where I would think of pressing (not reach for) the F2 key. FWIW, I have decent handwriting today, and even exchange correspondence with…

I have, on more than one occasion, reached down and wiggled my pencil in order to avoid getting a screensaver on the sheet of paper I was working with a couple of minutes ago.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#217

Post by walterbell »

egypturnash wrote: post #213
nickserv wrote: post #9

Do your children a favor and get them a "real" computer with keyboard and mouse, instead of a tablet. I've found it helps with several things. For one, I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Also, learning to use a keyboar…

> I've seen children accustomed to using touch interfaces blurring the line between physical and virtual, i.e swiping at physical objects like books, photos, even walls. I've not seen this behavior with those used to non touch interfaces. Recently I started reading actual paperbacks again after a few years doing most of my reading on a tablet; I was quite amused to find that sometimes I'd try to swipe the pages inste…

Motor memory working as intended. It can adapt in the other direction.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#219

Post by egypturnash »

colanderman wrote: post #58
wallflower wrote: post #40

Having volunteered to teach kids coming from single-parent household with no computer at home, I've seen how the inability to type on a QWERTY keyboard with any modicum of speed (hunt-and-peck) actually limits them when we encourage them to 'iterate', 'try fast and fail', 'just code a line of something', or 'what will that do?'. If expressing your thoughts and intentions to the editor is painful and slow, it is a con…

Specifically I would suggest to let them learn to type themselves , rather than following some program. (I.e., don't teach home-row typing.) I taught myself to type when I was 5 or 6, and type with wrists straight (so, at an angle to each other), hands in no fixed location, and both hands sharing duty for several keys. I credit this with my freedom from keyboard-related RSI even after 28 years of typing. (I have had…

I think there's something to this. I can type with a pretty decent speed if I look down at the keys now and then; my hands float around the keyboard and mostly hit keys with the first two fingers on either hand, with the occasional left pinky for a modifier and right thumb for space.

I have tried to Learn To Touch Type multiple times in my life and every single time I could feel my wrists starting to ache from holding them close together and angled. Dealing with that's just not worth the increased speed and ability to never look at the keyboard that touch-typing would give me.

Re: A new digital divide: Young people who can’t use keyboards

#220

Post by 7ewis »

laurieg wrote: post #134
mwcampbell wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cast your mind back to when you first encountered a computer keyboard. I remember hunting for seconds to find letters in this unfamiliar arrangement. How early did you learn to type? As an American born in 1980, I learned in first grade, and I don't remember it being a struggle. So maybe it's really important to learn early. FWIW, I'm visually impaired, so looking at the keyboard wasn't a practical option.

My family got our first computer when I was about 8. I didn't learn to touch type till I was sixteen, but by then I had a really good sense of where all the the keys were. I distinctly remember hunting for letters. (but then again I remember not being able to spell basic words, so perhaps I'm the outlier).

I started touch typing at around 18, after just forcing myself as I knew it'd be beneficial in the long run.

I could type around 60wpm using two fingers, I know where they keys are... Just not how to use every finger!

Now I touch type 'properly' I can get close to 100wpm. My speed has kind of plateaued now though unfortunately.

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