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U.S. Supreme Court to hear civil forfeiture case

nytimes.com

211–220 of 258 posts

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear civil forfeiture case

#211
Sorry for the long post, but I have to tell this story, as I saw 'civil forfeiture' up-front-and-center 25 years ago.

My college girlfriend and her family migrated from Mexico in the early 70's, worked their asses off and all became pretty successful. They mostly owned restaurants (pizza, not tacos), but other businesses, too. One of her brothers owned a chain of used car lots in Northern California. He was a hard-working dude, with a wife and two sons.

One of her brother's auto-detailers got busted for possession of a small amount of marijuana, which back in 1992 was actually a crime. The local cops claimed that the detailer was dealing for her brother, who was using his dealerships to distribute drugs and launder the profits. They seized his car lots, all the cars, his house, and froze his bank accounts. All total, the cops seized around half-a-million of cash and assets.

The DA refused to bring a case, mainly because (1) the detailer didn't even know her brother; he only worked at the shop for less than a month, (2) the detailer was busted for possession in his own apartment, no where near work, (3) the detailer originally said he sold drugs at the shop, however, taped interviews clearly showed the cops pressuring the detailer to say that; it was like watching a POW read a pre-written statement, and (4) there was simply no other evidence, nothing. The cops found no drugs and any of his lots or his home. The DA even criticized the local cops' behavior in his statement, dropping the case.

The DA dropped the case and said the local cops screwed up, so her brother should get all his assets returned, right? Wrong. His legal issues were just getting started. Looking back, it's clear the cops never had any intention of a criminal case.

Her brother sued to get his assets returned, but the system is all-in for the cops, and they know it. And they know how to work it. The cops' attorney would file for delays, demand ridiculous documentation, and just not show up to court appointments, causing more delays. For example, the cops' attorney argued about the value of the seized vehicles, and demanded that her brother have them appraised, however, he couldn't have access to the vehicles to do the appraisals because, after months of back-and-forth, it turns out that the vehicles were already distributed (sold at auction), just days after the initial forfeiture. It was even rumored that one of the cops gave one of the seized vehicles (a Mustang) to his girlfriend, less than a week after the initial forfeiture. Her brother also was not allowed access to his home where all of his records were kept, however, police were seen coming and going for months.

Oh yeah, remember how the DA never filed the case? That was another thing the cops' attorney argued - basically, since there was never a criminal trial, her brother was never found not guilty and thus the cops didn't know if he was a drug dealer or not. They claimed their policy allowed them to return assets to those proven not guilty in court. See how that works?

This whole back-and-forth process went on for over two years. I'm skipping A LOT of details. Finally, the police department offered $50,000, take it or leave it. Her brother's attorney advised he take it, noting that the situation would only get worse, the city was prepared to drag out the case indefinitely. He didn't get his house back, any of the vehicles, or his business - nothing. He took his money and moved back to Mexico with his wife and kids. He now owns a chain of restaurants - that's right, pizza. None of them even liked pizza. I always found that strange. LOL

Anyone who supports 'civil forfeiture' has simply never seen the effects on innocent lives. The defense I hear all the time is "Who cares? They're all drug dealers.", or "I don't believe it. Why would the cops seize assets from an innocent person?", and "What's so difficult about getting your stuff back, after it was seized?" But I saw a good man's life destroyed by this horrible policy. I buried my anger/frustration about this for years, thinking this bad policy couldn't possibly last, but unfortunately I was wrong. It's only gotten worse over the last 25 years. A lot worse.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear civil forfeiture case

#212
post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect application of civil forfeiture laws is one very good reason to have a digital currency. I'm not justifying its use for any illicit purposes but its pretty hard for a cryptocurrency to be seized during a traffic stop.

The government is doing a nice business in seized bitcoin, thanks. http://bitcoinist.com/us-government-to-sell-over-2000-seized...

I didn't say the government couldn't seize bitcoin or cryptocurrencies, only that it is a lot less likely if you get pulled over for a traffic stop. If law enforcement conducts a raid or can otherwise prove someone has been using cryptocurrencies for illicit purposes they have every right to seize it.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear civil forfeiture case

#213

I am appalled at the opinion of Judge Barnes: “I am keenly aware of the overreach some law enforcement agencies have exercised in some of these cases,” Judge Barnes wrote. “Entire family farms are sometimes forfeited based on one family member’s conduct, or exorbitant amounts of money are seized. However, it seems to me that one who deals heroin, and there is no doubt from the record we are talking about a dealer, mu…

...but he's talking about a dealer, not a user?

He was a user, though! And presumably became a dealer as a result (although this is not clear):

Mr. Timbs’s habit started with an opioid addiction and progressed to heroin. He used his Land Rover to get drugs and, on at least two occasions, to sell them. The buyers were undercover police officers.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear civil forfeiture case

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agreed. The argument I heard made before is "if people can just move, why do gay people live in [state with no civil protections for gay rights]?" It's an easy one to answer. Family, job, social connections, money; those are just a few. Then comes the question of how free should each state be or not be? What if you are born, for example, both gay and a native Texan[0]? Should Texas have the right to "force…

I grew up moving as my father changed jobs, and I continued the practice on my own when I turned 18. I'm at least 1k miles from any family, and I've had to make new friends many times. It's really not that big of a deal for many people. I think most people I know in Colorado were not born here.

I don't disagree. I, also, don't live where I was born or grew up, though it took a few decades of my existing on this planet before I was ready to move more than one county away from where I was born. But, like others point out, we are decidedly in the minority.

My anecdote is to point to the rest of my parents' children along with my parents' siblings and their children. All told, you wind up with about a hundred people (big families, lots of cousins). Out of all of them, I am the only one who does not live in Texas. And, out of all of them, I am one of only five who do not live in the 30-county area known as "Northeast Texas."

It's not like my extended family members are destitute or have some external tie to where they all live (e.g. they're not all "Texas Bluebonnet Genetic Researchers" or something like that). Yet none of them could fathom living anywhere else and every year at the big family reunion, I am still (quite a few years later) peppered with earnest, wide-eyed questions about how it is to live so far from "home."

As for your experience in Colorado, my experience and that of those who I know is that it "non-natives" tend to make friends with other non-natives than with native-born people. Why? The native-born people who live where they were raised still have those social and familial connections that were made over many years. Combine that with the trend of people seeking and making fewer friend connections as they grow older and the odds grow more slim.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear civil forfeiture case

#215
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all - one can very reasonably assume that 'very frequently' means after it has been discovered during a traffic stop, in which case it is valid to ask how often djrogers has been in that situation.

A mostly unrelated and offtopic comment: It's been a misconception that the $20 and $100 U.S. Dollar bills contain some RFID-like passive tracking capability embedded within the "ribbon" security feature. If you want to have an expensive and uneventful couple minutes, put a $20 in a microwave for a few seconds to "disable" the chip, but be sure to have a cup of water around. The foil-beanie wearing crowd claims that…

The stacks of cash with the ribbon and magnetic ink can be scanned for. Think of those plastic and metal ribbon security stickers stores use.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear civil forfeiture case

#216
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mandatory disclaimer that I think civil forfeiture sucks. While I agree with you personally, I think legally that would be very far from a slam dunk case. The situation in this case seems similar to the one in Bennis v. Michigan, where SCOTUS already ruled that the civil forfeiture did not violate the takings clause of the 5th amendment. So the 5A angle seems like a risky argument. On the other hand, the waters surro…

Good catch. I just read the opinion in Bennis. The core of it is that the state may take property if the use of the property constitutes a public nuisance. If a ship is used for piracy or drug running, for example, then it can be taken. In Bennis, there was a car jointly owned by a husband and a wife. The husband used the car with a prostitute. The wife didn't know. The question before the court was if the state's ta…

Yea, I agree that in Bennis, the focus is more on the wife's innocence and how that should impact the case. Personally, I agree with Stevens in his dissent that it has a huge impact, as the majority's logic taken to its conclusion would justify all manner of absurdities. Stevens imagines the state seizing an airline's jumbo jet should a single passenger (unaffiliated with the airline) board it with drugs.

> Although if the court is really enlightened, they'll distinguish between an asset which is primarily used for crime (a crack house or a pirate ship) and one which is used only in passing (like this car).

Agreed. The connection between the cars and crimes in both of these cases in incredibly tenuous.

The Stevens dissent in Bennis really rips the majority to pieces. I'm hopeful Ginsburg and Thomas have grown more skeptical of civil forfeiture in the interim, though I do wish our state and federal legislators would be a little less useless and clean up the civil forfeiture legislation.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear civil forfeiture case

#217
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do not agree with this argument, but it goes like this: If a wealthy drug dealer has cars, boats, houses and whatnot that are used in the course of committing crimes, the government should be able to seize them to stop them from continuing to be used for this purpose. If a drug dealer has a large amount of cash earned from the sale of drugs, he should not be able to use his ill-gotten gains to pay for lawyers or es…

Right, but that's an argument for after the crime has been proven. It's not an argument for seizing property just on the thought that one might be involved in crime.

The counter-argument here would be that the drug dealer should not be able to use the cash(and other assets) they obtained through their crimes to defend themselves. Waiting until conviction would mean that the alleged criminal could exhaust those assets as part of his defense.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear civil forfeiture case

#218
post #148

Civil Forfeiture is essentially "guilty until proven innocent." And I don't mean that hyperbolically, I mean literally if the state takes property or cash under Civil Forfeiture you have to prove your property innocent to get it returned (via expensive civil litigation). That means that they can seize property or cash under a certain value with near impunity because the cost of recovering it is greater than the cost…

Incorrect application of civil forfeiture laws is one very good reason to have a digital currency. I'm not justifying its use for any illicit purposes but its pretty hard for a cryptocurrency to be seized during a traffic stop.

> Incorrect application of civil forfeiture laws is one very good reason to

Those have their own drawbacks. Digital currency can often be tracked (not made to be anonymous). They might or might not have high currency fluctuations, security issues (could be even the device / site you're using), high transaction costs, etc.

If you already have cash it seems easier to just do a bank transfer (at least it is within most of Europe).

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear civil forfeiture case

#219
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> federal laws ... use funding carrots rather than criminal-punishment sticks There are limits to this, some of which are set out in South Dakota v. Dole, 483 U.S. 203 (1987). These limits (quoting wikipedia) are: * The spending must promote "the general welfare." * The condition must be unambiguous. * The condition should relate "to the federal interest in particular national projects or programs." * The condition i…

Do you have a background in law? Reading through this comment thread is very interesting, I just can't help but try to understand how so many geeks are so well versed in case law :)

Not in the slightest, I recall hearing about this on the "What can trump teach us about con-law" (constitutional law).

I don't even live in america, but the system is interesting and rather well represented in the media. Few countries are as attached to their constitution as the US.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court to hear civil forfeiture case

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't for the life of me understand why the 10th amendment does not have a more prominent place in the American political system than it does. It is because government would be hamstrung if they respected it? It would seem to the layman that is the entire reason it exists!

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Generally, after ratification the 10th Amendment was treated as a truism: essentially a useless amendment that simply confirmed the federal system of government. The words of the man who drafted the amendment, and who opposed it's inclusion: I find, from l…

>the Commerce Clause, which was extremely broadly written.

Not really, however in Wickard the Supreme Court simply ignored the entire words written, any context, and any rational thought processes around the words written to come up with a massive expansion of federal power that basic renders the enumeration clause pointless, and granting the federal government almost unlimited authority over everything

>>>>[The Congress shall have Power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

Seems narrow and precise to me, how 9 supposedly intelligent people came away reading in to the passage "Yes Congress can regulate how much wheat a man grows on his own farm for his own consumption" defy's all logic and reason

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