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Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

nytimes.com

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Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#211

Post by jackson1way »

veidr wrote: post #171
jackson1way wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> mass murder of gay people (Russia) any source on that? I have never heard about any murdering of gay people in russia. Clearly, Russia is rather hostile to gay people. But "mass murder" requires a proper source. Or you you are walking on the Iraq Weapons of Mass Destruction path.

Well, here are a few sources (I think the first one might be where I originally read about it, and realized the situation there was worse than I knew): https://www.newyorker.com/culture/2017-in-review/the-year-ru... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/27/russia-chechny... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_concentration_camps_in_Che... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/01/russia-rise-ho...

Before I had written my comment, I quickly did a search and found some info in Chechnya which I didn't follow.

Seeing your links, I went to wikipedia to understand what Chechnya is.

It appears to be an area in political unrest.

Right now only 1,9% people in Chechnya are russian.

So I guess it makes more sense to say "there is mass murder in Chechnya"?

And reading the first article, I don't even understand who is doing that, Chechnya people or russian people who live there? or russians from outside of Chechnya?

So my conclusion: what you're saying, is at least exaggerated and at worst just misleading on purpose.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#212

Post by y_molodtsov »

saagarjha wrote: post #192
chipotle_coyote wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that's probably true, Apple could bring to iOS what macOS has been doing for years: code-signed apps that aren't distributed through the App Store and aren't subject to any of the App Store's restrictions (and can't guarantee the ostensible security benefits), but can still be "disabled" by Apple if they prove to be bad actors. On macOS, there are actually three states for this: signed App Store apps, signed re…

> There's no really good technical reason for Apple not to allow at least the first two categories on iOS by now. But then I can sign a jailbreak with my developer certificate and pass it around. Now, you're going to say that such a thing has never happened on macOS, but the fact that it could happen because you've opened the door to it is something that should be considered.

As soon as it get wide enough they’d just block you.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#213

Post by y_molodtsov »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #18
anderber wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All this points to me is the risks of owning a phone whose only way to add apps is to go through one company's own discretion. Unlike in Android where you can easily install apps from other app stores or just download the file.

Android is almost as locked to Google Play as Apple is to the App Store, to the effect that no vendor has made a successful business selling phones without the Play Store. While they've finally fixed it, for years, they used scare tactics to prevent sideloading by insinuating it as a security risk, requiring you allow "less secure apps" in order to sideload. Most applications won't run without Play Services even if y…

But I can go to a public forum right now and find pirated .apk for thousands Android apps. And that’s extremely bad for the ecosystem.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#214

Post by Qwertie »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #100
jonknee wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installing apps outside an app store also introduces other risks, it's not exactly one better than the other. Personally I'd love to sideload apps, but seeing how big of a mess that was on desktops leads me to believe most users are better served by a gatekeeper.

While that's probably true, Apple could bring to iOS what macOS has been doing for years: code-signed apps that aren't distributed through the App Store and aren't subject to any of the App Store's restrictions (and can't guarantee the ostensible security benefits), but can still be "disabled" by Apple if they prove to be bad actors. On macOS, there are actually three states for this: signed App Store apps, signed re…

iOS doesn't allow this because Apple makes shitloads more money from mobile than desktop. They recently blocked Valves app from iOS because it allows you to stream games from another device which puts apples cut from the app store at risk. They don't care about steam on OSX because they make so much less money there.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#215

Post by v_lisivka »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #151
Muromec wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Fair enough - this is essentially my own question above - what pressure can be applied by Russia to Apple to prevent App Store UK getting updates? They can fine the company, ban import of Apple products into the country, block access to App Store, etc. Yes, that same agency. It doesn't even matter which regional section of App Store Telegram would use to publish app - users in need can switch between them and censo…

Let me rephrase- yes they can impose a fine, harass employees, ban imports of iphones, but what can they do that will work - ie force apple to ban a well known app from the app store innsuch a blatant fashion. Apple would be insane to comply with these demands, because it just opens the door for every other regieme to do the same. So ... is Apple stopping Telegram from sending the updates? Are they doing it because o…

Russia bent Google in no time to show Crime as Russian territory on Google Maps. Apple is stronger, but not so much.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#216

Post by y_molodtsov »

zapita wrote: post #83

Presumably Telegram doesn't know for sure why Apple is blocking updates... They are most likely getting stonewalled, with Apple not responding to any of their requests for information. Telegram suspects that Apple is trying to appease Russian censors while keeping a low profile and plausible deniability. Perhaps Apple is buying time and showing goodwill to Russia while they negotiate a deal - who knows? Acting on the…

I’m pretty sure Apple communicates with the developers of major apps in a different manner. Like when they didn’t immediately deleted Uber that was tracking the permanent device IDs which is prohibited by the platform. They’d delete any regular app that tried to do that.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#217

Post by Qwertie »

jstanley wrote: post #34
jonknee wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Installing apps outside an app store also introduces other risks, it's not exactly one better than the other. Personally I'd love to sideload apps, but seeing how big of a mess that was on desktops leads me to believe most users are better served by a gatekeeper.

I will never support an oppressor. People should be free of gatekeepers, even if they're worse at looking after themselves than the gatekeepers are, because being a gatekeeper is just far too much of a moral hazard.

I think the best option is picking your own gatekeeper. fdroid and redhat are the gatekeepers of my system but if they turn bad I can choose better ones.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#218

Post by v_lisivka »

codedokode wrote: post #159
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess my brain is too small to grok this all in one go but are you saying that Russia is applying pressure to Apple (what pressure?) that prevents Apple App Stores in all countries from accepting a new update of Telegram I don't get this - why is Telegram not releasing updates in a UK or Japanese region? What pressure (besides the local russian court system) is being applied here --- In general yes I expect that ap…

Maybe Apple just doesn't have a system to block updates in one specific country?

Yeah. One finger at a time, until all 21 fingers will be inside.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#219

Post by wruza »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #184
veidr wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, here are a few sources (I think the first one might be where I originally read about it, and realized the situation there was worse than I knew): https://www.newyorker.com/culture/2017-in-review/the-year-ru... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/27/russia-chechny... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_concentration_camps_in_Che... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/01/russia-rise-ho...

None of those in any way support your comment, whatsoever. And calling Chechnya Russia is similar to calling Peurto Rico the United States. It's a subject of Russia, but is not what you'd call Russia. It's a 95% Islamic nation that waged a lengthy war of terror attacks against Russia and has its own independent government, rules, and laws which are driven primarily by Islamic law. You'll find nations driven by Islami…

While chch is definitely not russian in any way, the good question is why they didn’t come for lgbt so massively before it was stated as russian law. It is not that you’re wrong, but this kind of thinking just supports the status quo – there is a region in RF that can turn anyone into an example. Not to mention a green light for these organized thugs almost everywhere in western russia. IMO they are controlled and guided from above, no doubt.

Re: Telegram App Says Apple Is Blocking Updates Over Dispute with Russia

#220

Post by y_molodtsov »

codedokode wrote: post #176
floatingatoll wrote: post #152

The App Store guidelines [5] indicate that, with regard to a single app, the app author (Telegram) "must comply with all legal requirements". Telegram agreed to this requirement when they published their latest update two months ago, and so Telegram – not Apple – is liable for illegality. Apple received a notice of illegality from Russia regarding Telegram, a third-party app. This notice was inappropriately delivered…

> "must comply with all legal requirements" Every country has its own legal requirements. As Telegram is a British company I assume it must comply only with British laws, right?

Tell that to GDPR. I’m pretty sure Apple meant the compliance with the regulations of the countries where the app is available.
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