I was mostly agreeing with the article until this part: "His medallion, once worth $1.1 million, had plummeted in value to $180,000. The dramatic drop in the value of the medallion, which he had hoped to lease for $3,000 a month or sell to finance his retirement, wiped out his economic security. He faced financial ruin and poverty. And he was not alone." The medalions are stupid and shouldn't exist. Relying on their…
Yes, the medallions were stupid, although I think they shouldn't have allowed Uber to operate without medallions, or get rid of the system in general. >Relying on their "value" for retirement is crazy. And like another commenter has said - if it was worth 1.1 million, why not sell it and retire Because he took out a loan of 1.1 million to buy it. It's not that he bought it for next to nothing and it rose to that pric…
'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom
211–220 of 278 posts
Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom
#212Earlier quoted context omitted.
This author made the mistake of trying to overgeneralize from the New York taxi industry, but most American job growth since 2005 has been temp work/contracting, Uber/Lyft are just the most visible for one industry - this kind of explains the general unease/longing for the past we saw in a sizeable percentage of the electorate expressed in the 2016 election in both parties. https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/m…
Arguably full-time employment is: * more like serfdom than having several bosses you can replace as needed * historically more of an anomaly than juggling a few side hustles like fishing and delivering mail and giving boat tours Besides, it seems like employment law is more to blame for the lack of full time jobs. At least more to blame than companies that hire part time workers. If, economically, we want more full t…
Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom
#213Earlier quoted context omitted.
Exactly. I make most of the money, not them. And the day I reduce their hours significantly because I bring AI into the platform -and one day I will-, I will make even more, and they will make even less. I don't think I am individually wrong to pay market rate for their work, and keep the surplus, but the bigger question is, while nobody is wrong, including AI, where are we going as a society? What will be the conseq…
You could start by just paying them better...
Should I pay $15/hr all over the world? Is it fair to pay those lucky ones an extra $5-7/hr for no particular reason, or to give that $5 to their respective country via taxes that all can share (healthcare, education, retirement)? Or should I increase my profits, and give it back to the US people through more taxes?
And when AI can do their job, then what? I keep them busy for no reason? Who makes the extra money, only me?
Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom
#214I was mostly agreeing with the article until this part: "His medallion, once worth $1.1 million, had plummeted in value to $180,000. The dramatic drop in the value of the medallion, which he had hoped to lease for $3,000 a month or sell to finance his retirement, wiped out his economic security. He faced financial ruin and poverty. And he was not alone." The medalions are stupid and shouldn't exist. Relying on their…
Millions of people rely on their house and stock. If my investments lost 80% of their value, I'd be hurting. But I agree with the larger point that taxi medallions were a terrible idea, artificially limiting the supply made them really expensive and we were paying for that every time we used a taxi of course.
Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom
#215Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Capitalism in America might not have even been possible without the extensive use of slave labor and the genocide of an entire continent of people" Rolling my eyes pretty hard at that one. Can you elaborate? Do you really think the whole system would have failed without slave labor? How was the capitalist economy different back then, such that free labor was absolutely necessary for it to be sustained? "There is suc…
There's a difference between saying "Capitalism in America" vs the whole system of capitalism. That aside it's probably hyperbolic for me to claim that it "might not have even been possible." My point is that people ignore the ugly history of capitalism but only want to talk about the ugly side of socialism. I'm sure there's equally biased pro-socialist rhetoric but since we live in a capitalist society the scale is…
Regardless, I do think the past failures of socialist states are very important to consider, as they present concrete evidence for different ways it can go wrong. And I would make the argument that, given all that evidence, it does speak to flaws in the philosophy itself. Because in order for full socialism to occur, it necessitates an authoritarian takeover of the economy by the state. The state is supposed to represent the people, of course, but once they seize power to start managing property and the economy, well, now they're authoritarian bureaucrats with too much power. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely" and all that. To me it's no wonder that dictators take control of socialist states so easily.
Then, even if the state does avoid becoming despotic, you still have to deal with the problem of a centrally planned economy being incredibly inefficient at creating wealth when compared to a capitalist market economy. The adage "you don't make the poor richer, you just make everyone poorer" in regards to full socialism seems pretty spot-on in my observation. Just look at Venezuela for a live example. In 2013 they were hailed as an economic miracle [1] and now, well, we can all see for ourselves how it went [2].
To me, the most prosperous economic model we've come up with is free market capitalism with some government protections in place, like anti-trust and consumer protection laws, and a basic social safety net. I'm open to debate, though. Are there any socialist economies you would point to as a success? What parts of socialist philosophy in particular do you see as being effective and worth pursuing?
1. https://www.salon.com/2013/03/06/hugo_chavezs_economic_mirac...
2. http://www.euronews.com/2018/03/26/colombia-s-venezuelan-mig...
Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom
#216Earlier quoted context omitted.
Taxis are going to be replaced by robots within the lifetimes of most people reading this. I think it's been clear for a while that owning a large segment of that market is Uber's end game. Under the classic hacker ethic, this is a good thing; humans shouldn't be forced to perform menial tasks. Of course, people currently performing those tasks for a living might not appreciate that. In the long term, however I think…
We'll die from starvation and exposure because we can't afford a home anymore, but at least we reduced traffic deaths and generated a lot of money for our shareholders in the process ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
With regard to human labor in particular, people have said of nearly every major breakthrough in mechanization or automation that it would destroy all the jobs, and every time, it has done no such thing. There are people saying "this time is different", but heuristically speaking, betting against a long historical track record is probably not a good bet.
Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom
#217In 1575 the Danish king gave Tycho Brahe an island and funding for an observatory in order to keep him in Denmark. This transformed the land from a Crown property to a feudal domain, of which Brahe was the lord. Tycho took control of agricultural planning, requiring the peasants to cultivate twice as much as they had done before, and he also exacted corvée labor from the peasants for the construction of his new castl…
I could be wrong, but insofar as wage labor is an evolution of serfdom, it seems to press farther away from the care that the owning classes have to invest in "their" workforce. That is, wage labor is a way of moving the conditions of reproducing labor onto the laborers themselves, and the gig economy is just another step in that same process. I have only a base understanding of the history and a very inconsistent an…
Ruling classes were limited in just how much they could take from the surrounding areas. Localities developed cultures and social institutions like English common law, and the ruling classes universally realized that it was more useful to work within those traditions than it was to impose your own on them. Where they conflicted, religious authorities were there to mediate disputes. Out of this reality, feudalism arose and developed for hundreds of years. Local people didn't have the means or inclination to do foreign policy or state building, for the most part. Lords were the necessary evil they accepted so that they could get left alone.
Naval technology changed all that and created a new merchant class. It became economical to move large quantities of goods over water and the people that did that quickly became rich. The original merchants were royally chartered, but there soon was enough of a manufacturing base in naval tech that anyone could start speculating in commodities.
Thus began colonialism. The old land lords lost power and prestige to the new merchants and slavery, which had been gone in Europe since the Roman Empire fell, started to serve the new colonial masters, who were far away from the old systems of social control, church and state. Wealth became liquid in a way that it never had been before.
It wasn't so much the forced work that was the problem, but the transportation away from home communities and the treatment of people as commodities. Britain proper long abhored the slave trade even as British citizens participated in it. International law had to be wrapped around the seas, and the British slowly brought a stop to the slave trade, at great expense. Slavery in her former colony took a civil war to end.
Forced labor can make individuals rich and powerful, but it's free people and institutions and the deals they make and the social contract that provide for the advancement of nations. Slavery was an existing part of the social contract under the Romans, then it didn't make sense anymore, until technology made it possible to bring it under the yoke of individuals.
As a nation, we're slowly coming to terms with the need for new social contracts to provide for the common welfare. Gig work allows individuals to be economically useful that wouldn't otherwise be, but is very close to the bottom of that barrel. Americans haven't come around to acceptance of the European welfare state, and it probably never will if you ask me. Gig workers will be left to their own devices and are the beginning of a new underclass. They're not quite slaves, not quite serfs, and lack the means to improve their lot. Like serfs, though, they will create their own internal rules and morals and institutions, and the business world will adapt around them.
Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom
#218Earlier quoted context omitted.
Taxis are going to be replaced by robots within the lifetimes of most people reading this. I think it's been clear for a while that owning a large segment of that market is Uber's end game. Under the classic hacker ethic, this is a good thing; humans shouldn't be forced to perform menial tasks. Of course, people currently performing those tasks for a living might not appreciate that. In the long term, however I think…
We'll die from starvation and exposure because we can't afford a home anymore, but at least we reduced traffic deaths and generated a lot of money for our shareholders in the process ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Homelessness is an issue largely because of a dearth of affordable housing. This is essentially unrelated to the Gig Economy (or other work issues, like automation) and substantially predates it.
https://www.geekwire.com/2018/every-100-families-living-pove...
Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom
#219Earlier quoted context omitted.
Seeing as every Uber and Lyft ride was (and still is?) subsidized by investor money, Cab vs App was never a fair competition. Replacing one problematic system with another that rearranges and changes what the problems are isn't always a net win. Assuming that any capitalist enterprise's goals will align with and optimize for the long term general health of society is frankly ludicrous.
Investment dollars aside, there's hard data to show that Uber and Lyft reduce drunk driving in any area where they operate, for one thing. It's a tangible addition to the general consensus that the apps are much better from a user experience perspective. Additionally, plenty of expanding companies are subsidized by investor money. You could say the same of Netflix and, until recently, Amazon. The point is that invest…
More cabs would likely do the same.
Re: 'The Gig Economy' Is the New Term for Serfdom
#220Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I can see why they needed the system though, to prevent a flooding of taxi drivers. And they were proven right, because now with gig economy drivers, the floodgates have been opened and the market has been flooded with drivers in a race to the bottom. I'm not convinced this is true, except in the short term. Plenty of service industries maintain a reasonable number of providers, and many even pay reasonable wages t…
A bunch of empty cabs looking for fares affects everyone in the city, though.
"Medallions are good because they keep wages high" is a position I thoroughly disagree with, but "medallions are justified as a traffic control system by the people who own the roads" is much better. Congestion and road wear aren't meaningfully priced into taxi fares, and it's possible that the socially-optimal number of cabs in circulation is well below the number a driver/rider market would generate.
Already we see a lot of complaints about Uber drivers circling blocks and stopping in traffic, especially since they're most active in high-demand areas. (This also justifies the gap between low-density cities without medallions and high-density ones with them.)
I still object to the medallion system. It's inflexible, doesn't scale automatically to demand, and creates ludicrously overpriced bearer instruments - with predictable consequences whenever supply increases.
But I can definitely accept that cities have a good reason to keep the cab count lower than consumer demand would. I just wish they'd do it by taxing rides or something similar. We've got perfectly good tools for fighting externalities that scale with demand, so why are we still using medallions?