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Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

nautil.us

211–220 of 360 posts

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#211

Disclaimer: I work for Google and these views are only my opinion, etc. From my perspective, Google's goals are aligned with improving the world by offering information services. Search, Gmail, Maps, Translate, basically all of the Other Bets, etc.--it's easy to imagine that the people behind them are more concerned with impact on the world than on generating profit or consolidating Google's power. To me, Facebook ha…

Come on. It’s getting kind of ridiculous how many Google employees are showing up in these discussions saying “oh, if you work at Facebook, you’re horrible! but people at Google are really trying to make the world a better place.” I turned down a job offer from Facebook because after a lot of thought I decided I couldn’t work at such a company. I didn’t even apply to Google because Google’s attitude towards privacy a…

You keep repeating this falsehood:

> Does the average person with an Android phone really know their location is being uploaded minute by minute to Google?

It doesn't seem like you have any idea how Google actually captures user's location data. Not only does Google give you the full ability to control and delete your location data [1] but the data collection is not on by default (though applications like Maps will prompt for it) and the data is always anonymized when used and most importantly the data is never shared with commercial third parties (though I believe Google may make anonymized data available to researchers whose projects pass certain ethical checks).

This data is used to drive projects like Maps and 'Popular Times' and real-time directions that people really, really like.

So while you seem to want to paint Google as manipulating people to harvest their data and sell it to the highest bidder (what Facebook basically does) nothing could be further from the truth. Facts matter.

I would personally say when it comes to handling user data Google is probably the most ethical and rigorous company in the world. I can't think of any other company that goes to such great lengths to protect user data as much as Goog does. It's been remarked many times that your data stored in Google's network is more secure than your data stored in NSA's network. Certainly you'll never see anything like private employees tracking their spouses using Google's data [2].

And here's the thing: Facebook is also pretty damn secure when it comes to user's data. Obviously they fucked up with their API but again I think a sober review of most American tech companies will show Facebook doing more to protect user data. You should be much more concerned with many of the fly-by-night websites that pump out fake news or sell cheap Chinese goods to people who don't know better. In fact it's these websites whose sole purpose is to suck up user data for profit.

The real point here of course is that while it may feel good to bash Google and Facebook it is not the best use of energy. What the US needs is what the EU is doing: real privacy regulation with real teeth that applies to any organization whose site serves American citizens.

But somehow I don't see that happening any time soon, right?

[1] https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/3118687?hl=en

[2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-surveillance-watchdog...

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#212

Forget scary. Let's talk about utility. Facebook gives you distraction but Google gives you information (YouTube, Google Search, GMail, Maps, Voice, Fiber, Project Fi, etc) and is more restrictive about how it lets partners use its platform to interact with users.

This. To me, the major problem with FB isn't even privacy. It's the fact that FB relies on, and encourages its users to behave like addicts.

HN has noprocrast because YC has a financial interest in their founders not wasting their time, or becoming addicts. Can you imagine FB implementing noprocrast? It goes against everything they do.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#213

Is Microsoft scarier than Google? Unlike Google, Microsoft tracks and profiles you online via their search engine and through all of the "telemetry" Windows sends back to them. Also, doesn't Microsoft operate their Azure cloud service in China that is run by a Chinese state run company?

> Unlike Google, Microsoft tracks and profiles you online via their search engine Citation seriously needed. “Unlike Google?” Who are you trying to kid?

Are you seriously suggesting that Bing doesn't track users? Who are you trying to kid.

Microsoft is able to recognize the same user across devices by using an anonymous identifier (MSID). The MSID is used to describe a persistent unique identifier used by Microsoft Advertising to deliver targeted ads and recognize the same user across devices and Microsoft services. Customers have a choice to opt out of targeted advertisements that use the MSID by visiting http://choice.microsoft.com/en-us/opt-outand turning off the control that says “Personalized Ads Wherever I use my Microsoft Account”

https://searchengineland.com/bing-ads-launches-universal-eve...

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#214
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on. It’s getting kind of ridiculous how many Google employees are showing up in these discussions saying “oh, if you work at Facebook, you’re horrible! but people at Google are really trying to make the world a better place.” I turned down a job offer from Facebook because after a lot of thought I decided I couldn’t work at such a company. I didn’t even apply to Google because Google’s attitude towards privacy a…

You keep repeating this falsehood: > Does the average person with an Android phone really know their location is being uploaded minute by minute to Google? It doesn't seem like you have any idea how Google actually captures user's location data. Not only does Google give you the full ability to control and delete your location data [1] but the data collection is not on by default (though applications like Maps will p…

I agree regulations are the best long-term solution. I think we probably agree on a lot of things regarding this issue. But I am disappointed to see the same equivocation regarding Google’s data collection.

> So while you seem to want to paint Google as manipulating people to harvest their data and sell it to the highest bidder (what Facebook basically does) nothing could be further from the truth. Facts matter.

The fact is that last winter, when reinstalling Android, I realized my phone was uploading location data to Google constantly as soon as I had clicked the misleadingly labeled “help make Android/Google Maps better” button. Curious, I decided to ask my friends and family if they knew about this—none did.

Google does ask for “permission” in the sense that it shows a misleading dialog box where the default option (visually indicated—see the Dark Patterns website for examples of this tactic) is to share everything. This is not a good faith effort to ask for consent: that is the empirical, objective truth, no matter what good intentions you might hope to ascribe to Google. Again, I invite you to see if a majority of normal people know what they are agreeing to when they set up their Android phones.

> Not only does Google give you the full ability to control and delete your location data [1] but the data collection is not on by default (though applications like Maps will prompt for it) and the data is always anonymized when used and most importantly the data is never shared with commercial third parties (though I believe Google may make anonymized data available to researchers whose projects pass certain ethical checks)

Whether data is shared with third parties is a good point, but this isn’t really meaningful when “Google” encompasses search, maps, phones, video, office software, etc. But it’s noteworth my friends at Facebook told me the exact same things about Facebook’s policies towards data—researchers need to go through approved processes there, too—it’s just that here those processes approved someone who was actually not ethical at all.

Facts matter, and to paraphrase you, although it may feel good to think that Facebook is worse than Google (and correspondingly that it’s ok to work at one but not the other), we need to look at what companies actually do, not what we think they believe they are doing.

Also, it seems you think that my claim about the average person not being aware of the extent of Google’s data collection is false. This is what I concluded after asking the people close to me, most who are not in technology. I invite you to actually go out and ask people before claiming otherwise about the results of what is well-acknowledged as a dark pattern.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Very few ISPs can track you no matter where you physically go, as your mobile, home, and work ISPs are likely all different. And ISPs are regional, none carry the level of threat of Facebook or Google. True, all tracking/privacy issues are bad but you can still route around Google/Facebook with simple things even such as hosts file loopbacks, browser extensions, using Firefox instead of Chrome and using different s…

I think you'd be surprised how much more similar Google is to these things. They absolutely bought and bribes their way into their monopoly reach, by paying to be the default on everyone's browsers, having other software bake Google Toolbar into their install wizards (later replaced by Chrome), etc. Also, given the HTTPS Everywhere push (mostly led by Google), usually only sites like Google and Facebook get to see yo…

Any big company has to lobby a bit but the ISPs only do that and do have local monopolies with false competition so you can't really choose another competitor in many places. ISPs haven't built any market products people want to use that they will willingly give up their data for.

Google and Facebook are ad networks that tracking is inherent because they are free and they make their money from ads.

ISPs are for internet access and privacy, you pay them so they don't sell your data. Now they want to be Google/Facebook without building a search engine or social network. They bought their monopoly with bribes so they could become ad networks/tracking networks. People have the expectation that their data isn't being sold by their ISP currently, but they are and it is fully legal now.

Google and Facebook aside, do you want your ISP tracking you and selling your private data?

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#216
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could write a pseudo-explanation even longer than the comment you are purporting to describe, or you could simply read the words that I wrote and not try to put words in my mouth.

Would the two of you ('jonathanyc and 'kimdcmason) please stop engaging uncharitably with each other? There might be common ground there somewhere, but you're not even trying to listen to each other. It doesn't matter at this point who's right or who's wrong or who started it or who's at fault. You're both contributing to continuing it. As one HN member to another, please help increase civility and substantive discou…

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Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#217

I hear so many people talking about this like there's literally no way about going around these issues. Is it that unimaginable to use an alternative search engine like DuckDuck go? To use tor? To use a VPN? To disable javascript? To block ads? To put some IPs in your /etc/hosts? To use OpenOffice instead of Google Docs and MS Office? To use Proton Mail instead of Gmail? These products even have nice user interfaces…

Maybe because you're not convincing the average person to use those services anytime soon, and that is who matters.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#218
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the two of you ('jonathanyc and 'kimdcmason) please stop engaging uncharitably with each other? There might be common ground there somewhere, but you're not even trying to listen to each other. It doesn't matter at this point who's right or who's wrong or who started it or who's at fault. You're both contributing to continuing it. As one HN member to another, please help increase civility and substantive discou…

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> "What constructive thing can one say to such a person? This is a serious question."

Probably nothing. If you don't have something constructive to add, don't.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you set up an Android phone you have the option of not using Google Services. Secondly, you can disable Google Play Services anytime you want. You can also turn off location history and tracking anytime you want so I'm not sure where you get the idea that none of these services or apps can be turned off or disabled.

I am not sure what comment you think you are replying to. Google Play Services cannot be uninstalled on a stock Android phone, like I said, only disabled; and disabling it means the vast majority of Android apps won’t work, like I said. These are facts that anyone can verify for themselves; you merely claiming otherwise doesn’t change this. You also seem to be confusing Google’s various services with Google Play Serv…

You can easily disable Google Play Services on ANY Android phone and that is a fact.

>You also seem to be confusing Google’s various services with Google Play Services specifically.

No I'm not. As I stated, Google Play Services can be disabled.

Re: Is Facebook Really Scarier Than Google?

#220
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would the two of you ('jonathanyc and 'kimdcmason) please stop engaging uncharitably with each other? There might be common ground there somewhere, but you're not even trying to listen to each other. It doesn't matter at this point who's right or who's wrong or who started it or who's at fault. You're both contributing to continuing it. As one HN member to another, please help increase civility and substantive discou…

I feel obligated to listen to and respect people who disagree with me on the issue of whether Google and Facebook are evil. But I can get and have gotten intelligent and reasoned perspective from people who aren’t spouting the names of logical fallacies as if they were hexes and caltrops. As much as I feel obligated to engage with others constructively, I feel obliged to discourage and make others aware of nonconstru…

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