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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#211

Post by maxst »

watwut wrote: post #179
mlazos wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t agree with this at all. It’s up to the participants to argue their points and see who has more valid designs. I became a much much better programmer by learning from senior devs who review my code.

Except when Juniors are humble and like "yes sir yes sir", don't defend their design assuming seniors know more and internalize everything. And except when seniors give conflicting feedback based on what they read yesterday. It was mostly impact on those juniors I found bad. They were told their code is crappier then it really was and lost a lot of confidence. They started humble and ended afraid to do anything excep…

Yeah, it was a long time ago (2000-2003) but I still clearly remember implementing everything twice as a Junior Developer - first my way, then their way.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#213

Post by loorinm »

Declanomous wrote: post #139
aerotwelve wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the answer, but they just won't listen. Management at so many firms have convinced themselves that developers leave because of all these magical reasons that aren't either 1) they're dissatisfied with their pay and you're not listening 2) they're dissatisfied with their working conditions (bullpens or open offices anyone?) so they'll never keep their best people and they'll never learn.

That's because fixing 1 and 2 are really expensive. On top of that, the further removed someone is from the work being done, the more they want people to look "busy". I got moved from a desk in in a dead end office with to a desk in a bullpen so that I could be "closer to the people who I work with." My performance fell off a cliff. People would stop by all the time to check up on things, there was always a conversat…

How is it expensive to solve the bullpen issue? Tell people to STFU or build a wall in the office, or at least put up some dividers. It’s not rocket science.

Most CEOs and VPs are idiots, handing money around to each other in a circle jerk of old white guys club, backslapping each other for hiring each other and keeping the hegemony going.

These idiots do not know what they are doing, they have just been conditioned to ooze confidence and ignore critics.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#214

Post by sterlind »

Smart junior devs make good algorithm designers. Most senior devs don't remember algorithms unless they do that sort of work - they just call into it.

Hire several and put them to work under a good mentor, on a project that requires little domain knowledge. They won't slow the seniors down, and finding a single successful one is worth the cost of taking a chance on the bunch.

Remember, most startups happened with teams of fresh grads.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#215

Post by watwut »

mlazos wrote: post #196
watwut wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except when Juniors are humble and like "yes sir yes sir", don't defend their design assuming seniors know more and internalize everything. And except when seniors give conflicting feedback based on what they read yesterday. It was mostly impact on those juniors I found bad. They were told their code is crappier then it really was and lost a lot of confidence. They started humble and ended afraid to do anything excep…

I feel like the problems you're describing are more workplace specific and not specific to the method of CR itself. For example, > They started humble and ended afraid to do anything except simplest tasks. It's the job of the team leads to create an environment where people (especially new people) shouldn't be afraid to try something out and learn from it. I've had plenty of CRs which went for some huge number of ite…

I agree with you, through I am pretty confident the seniors were well meaning. Insecure in more then one way, but still well meaning people with no intention to cause anything bad.

It is not that CR is has no place in the process. It is that it should not be primary tool for teaching, mentoring and leading. Nor talked about that way. Every forum and blog posts talks about CR as teaching tool and every discussion about juniors puts a lot of emphasis on CR and none on other tools. A lot of people think and act that way.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#216

Post by sumedh »

tslothrop wrote: post #110
broodbucket wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia & haven't heard of junior shortages anywhere around the country, I would hazard a guess that this applies to most places that aren't this overinflated Mecca of programmers

That's weird, I'm in Sydney and last year I sent around more than 100 resumes over the span of 6 months, only to land an intern position in a terrible "startup like" company, where I was underpaid and overworked. I had to quit after burning out in a few months. I know of several other juniors with this same issue.

100 applications with almost no luck sounds really bad but there is a possibility you are missing something in your resume. I work in Melbourne, if you want email me your resume and I will take a look to make sure you are not missing something basic.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#217

Post by rabidrat »

ritchiea wrote: post #206
pbourke wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like the current trend of agile development process common in startups now somewhat works against senior devs' interests to mentor junior devs. There simply isn't time allocated for this. If you're a senior dev, you should be gaming the system a bit to create the time needed to fulfill your role. Never let the keeners fill your time up to 100%, unless it's truly neccessary. There's always going to be some in…

If the system has to be gamed to achieve the best results for your team then the system is flawed.

The system is flawed.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#218

Post by stctgion »

godot wrote: post #152
nathanaldensr wrote: post #6

I love mentoring. I always have. I used to help out other kids in my high school programming classes. Despite holding several high-level software development positions, what is the total number of times I've been asked by management to mentor more junior folks? Zero. I did it because I love sharing knowledge and I like seeing looks of understanding appear on my colleagues' faces when they "get something" for the firs…

I feel like the current trend of agile development process common in startups now somewhat works against senior devs' interests to mentor junior devs. There simply isn't time allocated for this. Senior devs are held accountable for what they deliver, and doing so on time. This is among other things like code reviewing PRs and attending meetings. For most senior devs working under this circumstance, the best they coul…

Working in an agile team at the moment. I have zero time to be able to help the junior members of the team. Having a mentor is important but having a good mentor, somebody with the right skills and attitude is crucial. I'm watching helpless as the junior Devs take advice from the worst possible sources because they are the ones with the free time

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#220

Post by vkou »

zbentley wrote: post #37
emodendroket wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, man, if people want to pay me well and give me lofty titles I am not going to dissuade them. As developers I don't think that's our problem to worry about. Seeking out the most benefit for yourself is just common sense in the job market we live in and I'm not losing a lot of sleep over the prospect that I'm not as "expert" in my job as a lawyer is.

While I don't think you're a bad person for doing those things, can you see how this (repeated by enough people) produces the new-entrant-hostile hiring environment we currently have?

So is working for a living wage. Imagine how much room there would be for new entrants if you were paid $8 an hour! Everyone who wanted to could have a programming job.
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