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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

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Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#211

Post by galieos_ghost »

ForHackernews wrote: post #189
galieos_ghost wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone in my family has fought for the US in every war since the civil war. They have fought, bled, and died for this country, paid taxes, and helped build it from a weak country to the most powerful civilization in human history. They did it because they wanted their children and grandchildren to have a better life. Why should I feel guilty about this?

Because you did absolutely nothing to earn having good family members? Most people feel at least sheepish about their own success when faced with others, no less deserving, who experience failure.

The point is that millions of people made sacrifices for themselves and their families which cumulatively created the greatest civilization in history. Why should we feel guilty about reaping the benefits of those sacrifices? Why should we feel obligated to hand over our prosperity to those who contributed nothing to it?

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#212

Post by salmonfamine »

I think the explanation for bimodal dev salaries is pretty clear, and is similar to the explanation for the bi-modality in Lawyer salaries.

Google, Facebook, Amazon, and whatever other big name you want to throw in the pot, are competing for developers. However, they are not competing for the same developers as Epic Systems, for example. FAANG (or whatever) are competing for a highly skilled subset of devs that can meet their demanding hiring criteria. Similarly, top law firms are only competing for a subset of all law grads -- those that meet their demanding hiring criteria.

The difference here is that, in law, that criteria is focused around a prestigious degree. Presumably, this is because it is hard to thoroughly test a lawyer's competency as a lawyer in an interview setting. However, in programming, many top companies, apparently, find that a series of intense whiteboard interviews are sufficient to determine whether or not a dev meets their high standard.

However, we also have a shortage of devs across the board, for all companies. If CS enrollment increased by 100%, then presumably the "lower" distribution of salaries would stabilize at a lower number -- probably close to what traditional engineers make nowadays. However, the salaries of the GooBooks of the world will only be affected if a sufficiently high proportion of those grads can meet a very difficult hiring criteria.

Similarly, law schools have seen a dramatic increase in enrollment over the past few decades. Lower salaries have stabilized, since the market is now saturated. However, the salaries for top law firms remain high, because a similarly low number of candidates meet their difficult hiring criteria: Harvard, Yale, and etc. are producing more or less the same number of law grads as before, with respect to demand.

This is why Google can open an office across the street from Epic and yet still pay devs twice as much. This is also why I don't think immigration is a huge factor. Sure, if companies were able to immigrate significantly more workers, then salaries at top companies might drop to a degree. But the real drop would be seen in the salaries of devs at typical companies.

EDIT: grammar

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#213

Post by ryanianian »

jcadam wrote: post #143
aphextron wrote: post #134

>Another possibility is that U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionist barrier to prop up programmer compensation. It seems impossible for this to last (why shouldn’t there by really valuable non-U.S. companies), but it does appear to be somewhat true for now. I feel like this is the real issue here. The reason that the US has great companies is simply from the availability of large amounts of capital. And if the…

Truth be told, most software development doesn't require a high amount of intelligence, skill, or innate talent. I'm not afraid of a superior person taking my job. They would be no better at it than I am. I would probably be more productive if I were less intelligent (or on booze, but employers frown on that).

This is wrong. Even simple software requires a radically different way of thinking than the way most are trained. I've taught 6th graders how to code and it is clear that the way of approaching problems and creating solutions (i.e. creative thinking, intellectual curiosity, and willingness to collaborate and ask questions) really separates the students from who "get it" and thse who don't. Don't sell it short because the industry has made tools and languages that abstract over some of the simpler concepts for entry-level tasks.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#214

Post by tytytytytytytyt »

aphextron wrote: post #134

>Another possibility is that U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionist barrier to prop up programmer compensation. It seems impossible for this to last (why shouldn’t there by really valuable non-U.S. companies), but it does appear to be somewhat true for now. I feel like this is the real issue here. The reason that the US has great companies is simply from the availability of large amounts of capital. And if the…

> And if the millions and millions of Indian, Chinese, and Eastern European programmers who are inifinitely more talented/driven/intelligent/educated than myself were able to simply move here and seek employment with no immigration restraints, I know that I would be out of a job instantly.

Couldn't you say the same thing about other professions?

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#215

Post by solipsism »

fuggedaboudit wrote: post #197
aaavl2821 wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are two interesting correlaries: 1) programming seems to be one of the only "hard" professions that pays well (compared to math researchers, hard science researchers, or even things like some social work -- that's really hard in entirely different ways). Of course I'm probably missing some hard stuff that pays well 2) programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned. Once you get…

I guess the grass is always greener. I'm a lawyer who lurks here occasionally. Most legal jobs involve 60+ hours of work, being on call 24/7, and there is pretty much no legal equivalent of a 10Xer because almost all work is billed by the hour. There is no way to make a contract that's 10x as valuable as your competitor's, and certainly no legal equivalent of scaling to the degree of Google or Facebook. Law is incred…

Are you at a top tier law firm? Because you're comparing yourself to programmers at a top tier employer of programmers.

The life of the average programmer certainly does not involve endless burritos or massages, and the compensation is probably below yours.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#216

Post by workthrowaway27 »

alkonaut wrote: post #171

Isn't part of the bimodality here just a "Silicon Valley Effect", where a few companies in a few very expensive areas compete for talent that has to pay ever more for housing? If one factors out the major tech hubs and only look at e.g. any random city, is the bimodality there too?

This is the most perceptive comment in the thread. Based on moving from NYC to a much smaller metro area without any major tech companies I think you're right. Compensation here is roughly half of NYC compensation. The big tech firms are driving the high salaries.

I'm sure you'd see the same pattern if you looked at finance grads. The top ones who went to work for investment banks, hedge funds, etc. are pulling down large salaries, the rest are making much less working for small to medium size companies.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#217

Post by ryanianian »

galieos_ghost wrote: post #211
ForHackernews wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you did absolutely nothing to earn having good family members? Most people feel at least sheepish about their own success when faced with others, no less deserving, who experience failure.

The point is that millions of people made sacrifices for themselves and their families which cumulatively created the greatest civilization in history. Why should we feel guilty about reaping the benefits of those sacrifices? Why should we feel obligated to hand over our prosperity to those who contributed nothing to it?

Don't feel guilty, but realize that you're not entitled to what you have - you got lucky being born to parents who worked so hard etc. Continue to work as hard as they did and appreciate their work.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#218

Post by [deleted] »

computator wrote: post #56
eksemplar wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it’s anecdotal from experience and my network. 10 years ago we would get 1-5 applications for a programming job, and most would frankly be underqualified. The last position I put up for a regular .net, jboss and sharepoint position had over 300 applicants, several vastly overqualified. I work in the public sector, so it’s not exactly because we offer what most developers consider “dream positions” and we certai…

> The last position I put up ... had over 300 applicants, several vastly overqualified. Interesting how this contrasts with the widely-held perception that there is a programmer shortage.

[deleted]

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#219

Post by ivanche »

foo232323 wrote: post #21
meuk wrote: post #9

IMHO, the title should be fixed to mention that it is only about developer compensation in the USA . I am always surprised at the salaries in the USA. I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees from two well established universities, and earn about 2k euro a month (before 20% tax deduction), which is considered fairly decent for a starter. Even then, many corporations outsource software development to Eastern…

Europe is far beyond the US (regarding cs saleries, I mean), but in e.g. Germany it's not that bad. I've a masters degree and about 3 years work experience and am at around 6k a month (+ vacation bonus +christmas bonus +personal performance bonus +company retirement plan) which is quite average in southern germany at least for bigger company and engineering/technical roles.

6000EUR or 6000USD? If it is EUR then I can only say very well done! Can you please give us some subtle hint about company name?

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#220

Post by workthrowaway27 »

notacoward wrote: post #132

It would be interesting to see if compensation is bimodal within a market . There's clearly a bimodal distribution between the US and the rest of the world, and has been for a long time. I think we're also moving toward a bimodal distribution between the top five or ten unicorns and everyone else even in the US. Quite simply, the companies with billions to spend are bidding up the price of talent willing to work ther…

Yep, I switched from fintech to another industry (still software development) and took roughly a 50% paycut to do so. It let me live in a much nicer part of the country (given my non-work interests), but I might go back since the pay is so much more.
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