Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive • Hacker News Board

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#211

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 7:59 PM UTC

ecshafer wrote: post #186

cortesoft wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is some decision or planning that leads to this. New York is so dense because it is geographically constrained, and as the city grew it had no where to expand out to, so it had to become more dense to grow. Los Angeles, on the other hand, was created as smaller cities grew outward and connected to each other. They are both successful in growth for different reasons, but their density was determined b…

Los Angeles has extremely strict parking requirements, and green space requirements. People often have no choice but to build out due to expense. There was a fantastic write up on Reddit by an architect on the issue here https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/LosAngeles/com...

[deleted]

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#212

Post by pcwalton » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 8:00 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #95

roymckenzie wrote: post #26

Lol America. Where walkable streets are justified by economics and not humanities.

Economics is to urban planning like structural mechanics is to architecture. It's a way of describing a justification ("we need a beam to hold up the floor, and the math shows why") not a justification in and of itself. It's also a way of bridging differences in subjective preferences "whether we have a post or a cantilever, we need to hold up this awning, and the math shows why"). Most Americans don't live in cities…

> To a degree that stands in stark contrast to Europe. Over 60% of the population of Germany's capital lives in the city proper. Just 11% of the population of America's capital lives in the city proper.

Eh, D.C. is an outlier due to its special legal/territorial status. And the numbers are uneven in Europe as well. In Los Angeles, 3,976,322/13,131,431 (30.3%) of the population of the metro area lives in L.A. proper. Compare to Paris, where only 2,206,488/12,405,426 (17.8%) of the population of the metro area lives in Paris proper.

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#213

Post by luckydata » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 8:01 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #37

crispyambulance wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That concept has already been implemented. Urban planners who practice it call it "new urbanism". It has been a mixed bag, but is better than the "malls-connected-by-highways" approach of many suburban development s.

Too much density decreases the quality of life. Overcrowdedness, very long waiting times at every establishment or government office, increased ease of pickpockets etc. to "disappear into the crowd", higher prices. You already see all this in many existing cities; you want that, but worse? I'll take malls connected by highways over that any day. Malls are nice and cars are a better experience than transit/walking in…

I don't know where you live, but you clearly never experienced a city the way it's being described by the others in this thread. I currently live in the US in a small town in the midwest after a long stint in California (socal first then bay area).

Previously I lived for a few years in Madrid, an extremely dense city by western standards. I used to walk home from the office (roughly a mile and a half) when the weather was good, took metro and walked in bad weather. Bars and restaurants were all over the place, and it wasn't unusual I would walk by a store with something nice in the window and decide to go inside to see if I wanted to buy (young dude with a lot of disposable income, that was nice).

Over time I got to create relationships with the owners of the stores I would visit more frequently, and it wasn't rare to meet coworkers randomly by getting a beer in a bar with a friend. We would join groups and my social circle would naturally change over time.

Fast forward to now: I go from home to work, then back. I never meet anyone I haven't made plans to meet. I buy everything online. I haven't made a new friend in 3 years, and the variability of my social circle is also very limited. I'm bored all the time, and I eat too much and watch too much tv because I have no idea what to do with some of my free time. It sucks, and I wish I could go back to that lifestyle because it was a lot more fun than anything I experienced in the US.

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#214

Post by jermaustin1 » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 8:01 PM UTC

lazerpants wrote: post #203

gorkemyurt wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The better formula is 'no empty walls'. Vancouver does this. Retail doesn't fit in every single location when that's the case ground floor is replaced by street level townhouse style entrances to individual units..

Exactly, NYC has a glut of unused ground floor retail space and a housing shortage, simultaneously.

It's so bad most commercial listings usually have something along the lines of "Not suitable as living space" in them. That's because you can rent a small ground floor office in some of the further north neighborhoods of Manhattan for almost half the price of the same square foot apartment, with similar amenities.

The kitchen will be tiny (so is the one in your apartment), the bathroom will be tiny (so is the one in your apartment), and the offices might be tiny (so is your bedroom in your apartment).

I understand you need egresses in case of fire and things like that which many offices don't have such things, but I feel they would be better served as apartments since they stay vacant for years at a time.

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#215

Post by tomjakubowski » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 8:02 PM UTC

supplied_demand wrote: post #81

jimmaswell wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too much density decreases the quality of life. Overcrowdedness, very long waiting times at every establishment or government office, increased ease of pickpockets etc. to "disappear into the crowd", higher prices. You already see all this in many existing cities; you want that, but worse? I'll take malls connected by highways over that any day. Malls are nice and cars are a better experience than transit/walking in…

>Malls are nice and cars are a better experience than transit/walking in every facet This isn't even remotely true. You are forgetting the time spent finding a parking spot, the opportunity cost of having a parking lot instead of more housing or commercial space, transit/walking also provides exercise, which matters in an epidemically obese society. This doesn't even get into the pollution aspect of driving or the co…

It's also much harder to safely solve crosswords, do math problems, or carry on a conversation when driving a car as compared to using transit.

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#216

Post by ef4 » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 8:03 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #136

Dirlewanger wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If density is so awful, why have malls been closing left and right for years? Why have so many people been flocking to more dense neighborhoods?

I'd guess because of the economy. The high paying/skilled jobs are there so people were forced to move. Outside of this strange vocal minority that shows up here, very few people would actually prefer to live in an urban area instead of a small town or suburb or whatever given the choice.

> Outside of this strange vocal minority that shows up here, very few people would actually prefer to live in an urban area

If that was really true it would create a huge arbitrage opportunity for people to make billions of dollars by building their businesses out in cheaper areas.

> The high paying/skilled jobs are there

Yes, but the question is why? If most people don't want to be in cities as you say, that would also include business owners, who could save a ton of money by moving their businesses into cheaper areas and paying lower rents and wages.

But that's not happening, on net. We're seeing the reverse. Businesses that fled to the suburbs 60 years ago are steadily moving back into cities.

https://www.economist.com/news/business/21706285-lots-promin... http://fortune.com/2011/07/14/companies-head-back-downtown/ https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/02/business/economy/why-corp...

Many of these are sober, fortune 500 companies that wouldn't be moving if they didn't see a clear economic reason to do it. It's not some "strange vocal minority" position.

We are returning to the long-term average for civilization since the first cities began 6000 years ago: cities are the centers of economic activity and power. America went through a weird inversion for two generations where that wasn't true. We're now reverting to the mean.

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#217

Post by trgn » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 8:04 PM UTC

jimmaswell wrote: post #192

crispyambulance wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn't sound like something I'd care much about. That's OK. It's a free country you can live where and how you want. But recognize that many, especially increasing numbers of millennials, feel differently and this is now reshaping the demographics of cities.

I want to know what it's supposed to amount to. Talking to people randomly on the street or on the bus?

Pretty much like a Normal Rockwell painting. A community near to you and all the advantages that come with it.

- The ability to just stop by a neighbor for a drink or a chat

- Somebody to give your house keys to while you're on vacation, without inconveniencing them since they live so close

- Being able to call your doctor off hours in an emergency because you have a personal relation beyond your yearly visit

- The grapevine that will let you know if somebody saw your kid hang-out with the trashy teenagers

- Ability for your kids to walk to school, so you're not wasting your time driving them. Same for your parents, they walk for their daily groceries, instead of whining about how they no longer can drive and making you feel guilty for not chauffeuring them around

- Ability to use your neighbor's car when yours is in the shop, because he doesn't need it since he generally bikes to work

Basically, supreme convenience. A small town has everything you need for daily life, at your fingertips. There's redundancy and fallbacks literally around every corner for life's little setbacks, because you have actual convivial relationships with your neighbors.

Some people really don't care about that. Other people really do. In America, the second group is SOL. If they want that convenience, they'll pay dearly for it. In other countries, it's the other way around. The norm is the walkable town, and the exception is the sprawling burbs.

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#218

Post by bluGill » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 8:05 PM UTC

baby wrote: post #171

wonder_er wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This leaves those preferring density at a relative disadvantage. 100% agree. I much prefer to live in a dense, urban, walkable area, but most built environments that satisfy these criteria violate modern zoning regulations. So, the USA's supply of pleasant, dense environments is dwindling because every time an olde/walkable area revitalizes enough to attract new development, that new development must comply with mo…

The only city I've been in the US that made me think "wow, that's kind of walkable" was Boston. Are there any other dense cities I should visit?

Most cities have a walkable area someplace, normally just outside of downtown (close enough to downtown that residents walk downtown), but often note actually downtown. Often is is just a few blocks so it is easy to miss (and there is a lot of traffic which is not ideal)

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

#219

Post by hosh » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 8:06 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #3

This is something that certain cities have understood for many years. Chicago, for example, mandates that all new development from a simple three-story building to a 100-story skyscraper has retail at its base to improve the walkability of its streets and make its business corridors vibrant. This also helps push down retail rents even in the CBD, allowing local upstart businesses a shot at reaching the masses. Chicag…

Reminds me of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16158918

"How Automakers Invented the Crime of “Jaywalking” "

Re: Walkable Streets Are More Economically Productive

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Post by jimmywanger » Thu, Jan 18, 2018, 8:06 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #207

jimmywanger wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather live in Singapore or El Salvador? Especially if you have a family that depends on you.

As if those were the only choices. I'd rather stay where I am than live in either place.

Well where you are is presumably better than El Salvador when it come to terms of crime and wealth, and better than Singapore in terms of freedom.

If you were currently living in El Salvador with a family, would you move to Singapore for freedom? Conversely, if you were currently living in Singapore with a family, would you move to Singapore for safety and money?