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Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

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Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#211
post #180
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument Myers is making is that while the DNA might be the input to the system, the total amount of data in the system is that input plus the rules around how that input is interpreted/works. Those rules (for example around protein folding) are currently encoded in biological systems as the laws of physics, more or less, but they're insanely complicated and currently unknown. So the point is that perhaps if you…

So it's a bit like a program, with sequences also selecting a different Turing machine? (which determines how that subsequence is interpreted.) Because the Turing machine is selected entirely by the sequence (the protein folding caused by the laws of physics is selected entirely by the sequence), the number of possible results (the number of different shapes that could result) is limited to the number of different se…

> That is, the information in the phenome seems to be limited by the information in the genome.

I think that is a very original use of the word 'limited', limited in this case holds enough room for random chance to come up with human beings.

For all practical purposes that 'limited' might as well be unlimited.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#212
Just from the description in the Wikipedia this is how I read Ray.

He is excellent in marketing, in sales, in networking & as an overall promoter. All qualities we hackers need to cultivate as long as we control ourselves & avoid pitching any vapor-ware.

Some examples of him promoting his product or himself. 1. At 17, appeared on the CBS television program I've Got a Secret - showed off software that composed piano music 2. International Science Fair, first prize for the same. 3. Recognized by the Westinghouse Talent Search 4. Personally congratulated by President Lyndon B. Johnson during a White House ceremony. ... Incredibly, it goes on and on. Very fascinating, if read with the heart of an entrepreneur. His whole life seems to be a chain of fantastic promotions.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As for the first answer: we all have to learn to deal with roundoff error. That's not by principle an obstacle. The other answer contains an implicit assumption that's not obviously correct: you suggest that complexity only arises when you enumerate every possible dimension of phase space. But physical simulations have been very successful at reproducing complex behaviour from simple rules, without taking into accoun…

Biological systems are approximate. I would assume that they can deal with a little rounding error.

At the lowest level biology is physics. And physical systems are not approximate, they are exactly what they are, and a small round-off error can give a huge difference in the specific outcome, even if on a macroscopic level that outcome might be indistinguishable from the 'real' outcome.

So the real question then becomes does biology tolerate working on an approximation of the underlying physics and does that simulated biology still have the ability to exhibit intelligence. I think the first is a maybe, the second a yes but I couldn't give you any reasons why other than that it might be that our biology needs 'its' physics to operate and that probably anything Turing complete has the potential to exhibit intelligence, regardless of whether or not we find a way to achieve that.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#214
post #181
post #65

I'm a life-long programmer who presently works in software, but I studied biology in college... mostly because I wanted to learn about learning by studying how living systems do it. Biological systems are nothing like anything we would ever engineer, and to understand them we must remove our "anthropocentric engineer goggles" and look at them for what they are. Analogies between biological systems and computers, soft…

So much nonsense in one place ... >>Biological systems are nothing like anything we would ever engineer You really believe, you can predict what human technology will look like in 50, 100, 10000000 years? >>DNA is not a program A hard disk platter is not a program. >>Nature has had billions of years, and it is way ahead of us. That's why birds are so much faster than planes. >>Cells are not machines..."stochastic qua…

>That's why birds are so much faster than planes.

wtf? As if the only goal for flying is to go as fast as possible. A bird can land on a branch that can hardly support its weight while the wind is blowing said branch.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#215
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DNA is not a program-- it is a molecule, and one that may very well do things at the quantum level that are biologically important. Sure, but Kurzweil's claim is merely that if DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information, then regardless of how the DNA behaves, we have at least a loose estimate of the level of complexity in the brain. I don't necessarily think that he's right that AI will firs…

"DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information" It doesn't directly encode the structure of the brain. Development is required. "Involved" is a serious weasel word when it comes to the brain, especially when AI is under discussion; everything in your skull is "involved" in cognition, but that doesn't mean it's doing anything particularly important, and it definitely does not mean that every deta…

My point is that you can't write a little equation for a neuron (which is an entire living cell!) and wave your hands and say "done!" Kurzweil is way way way too hand-wavey for me.

Yes, we're in full agreement on this, especially the part about Kurzweil - I don't think he advances the science of this at all, and his poppy PR approach rubs me the wrong way, for sure, as do many of his specific ideas.

In particular, I think it's a terrible idea to hinge our hopes for AI on the idea that we'll be able to carry out a perfect enough simulation of a full brain to call it "done". Not only does it seem to be a pipe dream at present, depending on a whole bunch of technological advances that may not come for a long time, it would be almost completely inextensible and teach us very little - once we had such a simulation running, it's unlikely that we'd understand enough about how to modify it to improve upon it.

I don't quarrel with the idea that DNA encodes the brain extremely indirectly at all, including a substantial development process that depends on a lot of things other than the pure genetic code, and I also agree that the dynamics of a brain are very dependent on the details of all sorts of cells, not just an oversimplified logical representation of them. Where I think we start to diverge is that I have issues with the idea that the particulars of any of those processes can somehow "piggy-back" any non-trivial amount of functionality into the system that's not coming from the genetic code.

Here's the clearest way, I think, to state my information-content claim: if we were to randomly change the details of the way neurons function in detail (still leaving them with the same highest-level capabilities), and randomly change the way brain development happens, and randomly change all steps of entire process that leads from DNA->brain (again, subject to the restriction that the whole thing still works), and even - I daresay - randomly change the laws of physics, then...

...if all of these changes still permitted us to write down any string of DNA (or whatever our new version of DNA was) that ultimately resulted in the growth of an intelligent human brain, the amount of DNA required would, on average, be pretty darn close to the amount that we see used today. And that has implications for other implementations of the same logic, namely that if we could find some way to optimize towards whatever solution evolution has found, we could probably end up with a shorter code for it than evolution has because we can allow all parts of the DNA->brain process to optimize for compression whereas the real physical process is largely frozen against change.

That's the sense in which I think Kurzweil has a reasonable estimate, nothing more, nothing less; where he takes it from there is another story altogether. :)

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DNA is not a program-- it is a molecule, and one that may very well do things at the quantum level that are biologically important. Sure, but Kurzweil's claim is merely that if DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information, then regardless of how the DNA behaves, we have at least a loose estimate of the level of complexity in the brain. I don't necessarily think that he's right that AI will firs…

Sure, but Kurzweil's claim is merely that if DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information, then regardless of how the DNA behaves, we have at least a loose estimate of the level of complexity in the brain. The problem is that DNA is not sufficient. Organisms don't grow from naked DNA in a vacuum; the DNA is always contained within a cell which is enclosed within a more complex bio structure (eg…

You need all of this information plus knowledge of the various interactions of the different environments to pursue Kurzweil's approach.

Absolutely, and this is one reason why I think Kurzweil's approach overall is pretty foolish.

But I do think that his information-content claim is within the bounds of reason (I've explained my stance on that many other places in this thread, the gist is that it's highly unlikely that the whole developmental process supplies a huge amount of information "for free", in the same sense that it's unlikely that you'll achieve a 10x compression in code size by using Python instead of Ruby to write a program) and it at least tells us that a solution to the problem of intelligence does exist that doesn't require (for instance) explicit hard-coding of every neural connection inside a brain. In fact, it requires massively less information to specify than that, so there's some hope that in the end we'll be able to come away with reasonable approximations to that algorithm since it must be "fairly simple" (meaning: more complicated than anything we've tackled before, but maybe still within the realm of possibility).

That hints at the fact that AI researchers (at least those that don't buy Kurzweil's ridiculous "simulate-the-whole-thing!" approach) should be looking more into building out small "genomes" into massive structures rather than focusing too much on individual explicitly specified processing networks, because nature is clearly doing something like that, and it seems to work pretty well, letting it achieve a remarkably compact solution, given that evolution tends to produce very bloated code as a rule. There has been tentative research along these lines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNEAT, for example), but there needs to be more, particularly to figure out what sorts of things we actually want these massive structures to do, what sorts of processes we should be focusing on to control that building process, what types of units we need in order to make the processing that we're doing feasible, etc.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#217
post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and a shag rug has a much higher Kolmogorov complexity than the instructions for how to weave it. If measured carefully enough you'd find every individual strand of yarn in it has a unique length, orientation, curvature, amount of twist and amount of fraying that can be measured to an arbitrary degree of precision. So if you wanted to reproduce or store a description of that exact rug, you couldn't do it. That…

There is a huge part missing here though. A rug simply has to 'be', a look alike will suffice. A brain has to work .

The question on the table, I think, is whether a brain that's pretty darn similar to a working one will still work or not - does it just have to have similar statistical properties, or are the explicit details of the connections important, does the chemistry have to be just-so, if we replaced neurons of type X with pseudo-neurons of type Y that do almost the same thing when viewed at scale Z but are completely different underneath, would it still work, etc.?

A lot of these questions are completely unanswered. We do know at least that the brain is extremely resilient to changes in chemistry and can work quite well even in the face of extensive damage, which is an indication that we might be surprised how little of the overall arrangement is actually necessary to keep it working properly.

We need to make sure that we're being careful with our language, too: the complexity necessary to specify any brain is a whole lot lower than the complexity to specify one particular brain. In AI the goal is the former, but for the latter, we really do have to worry about each strand in the carpet. An AI researcher might not give a rat's ass about reproducing your memories, and will be more than happy to construct something that can form any memories; on the other hand, to you, your memories (and the detailed wiring inside your head, which we might be able to alter substantially without "breaking" the brain) are vitally important.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DNA is not a program-- it is a molecule, and one that may very well do things at the quantum level that are biologically important. Sure, but Kurzweil's claim is merely that if DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information, then regardless of how the DNA behaves, we have at least a loose estimate of the level of complexity in the brain. I don't necessarily think that he's right that AI will firs…

if DNA can encode everything the brain does with N bits of information, then regardless of how the DNA behaves, we have at least a loose estimate of the level of complexity in the brain. No even close. Imagine a kilobyte filled with alternating zeros and ones. We have two commonly used methods for describing the information content of this kilobyte. Shannon information content is closely approximated by today's compr…

We're arguing different things. You're talking about the information content required to reproduce a particular brain, which I agree, has a massive Kolmogorov complexity (even if we decide, as we might want to, to factor out many equivalence classes based on behavior). Far more than a DNA estimate would hint at.

But I'm just talking about (as are most AI people, and I think Kurzweil, as well) the informational content required to build a brain. Any old brain, could be yours, could be mine, is probably neither. The information required to do this is much lower, and corresponds loosely to your first example, a kilobyte with alternating ones and zeros.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look - all the talk of the brain as a "quantum computer" seems to be more full of "bull" than the talk of mind uploading and 700 year lifespans. Quantum interactions happen in all matter that we observe, so they happen in the brain. There is not that much more to it. Neural computation depends on neurons and synapses, communicating with hormones and electrical impulses. If we can model the significant algorithms and…

As far as I know, Roger Penrose first proposed the idea that quantum effects on neural processes will make computational modeling of said processes impossible. It is highly speculative, and the strongest evidence it's got going for it is that an eminent physicist wrote a book based on it ( The Emperor's New Mind. )

The Emperor's New Mind was (IMO) abysmal, and I was really embarrassed to see someone with such indisputable genius as Penrose put out such drivel. You're very right, the strongest evidence for his theory there is that an eminent physicist wrote on it. That's not a good thing.

Please, if you've subjected yourself to that nonsense, cleanse your palette with The Road To Reality - math/physics is where Penrose shines, and that book is him at his brightest.

Re: Ray Kurzweil does not understand the brain

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a huge part missing here though. A rug simply has to 'be', a look alike will suffice. A brain has to work .

The question on the table, I think, is whether a brain that's pretty darn similar to a working one will still work or not - does it just have to have similar statistical properties, or are the explicit details of the connections important, does the chemistry have to be just-so, if we replaced neurons of type X with pseudo-neurons of type Y that do almost the same thing when viewed at scale Z but are completely differ…

Absolutely true.

That leads to 'seed AI', http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seed_AI when run in reverse, so you'd have to implement the 'minimally viable self improving brain', and take it from there.

And even there maybe not all the strands in the carpet have to be just so, but it may very well be that there have to be certain amounts of each colour in roughly such and such a pattern with interconnects between these larger groups and so on. Some of that information is known but definitely not all of it.

The damage angle is a tricky one, some damage seems to be absolutely not problem at all, even if it is major, in other cases the smallest bit of damage seems to be enough to cause terminal failure. There are a lot of clues in there about the organization of the brain.

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