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Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

bbc.co.uk

211–220 of 242 posts

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#211

Lest we forget, this is still the same government that mowed down 10,000 innocent lives, that still runs China today. They've gotten better at hiding behind marketing, propaganda, and strong arming other countries, but they're still ruled by a small, powerful group of elders that control every aspects of Chinese people's lives. It's sad that we keep feeding this dangerous psychopath which threatens democracy and free…

Let me try: there has been no acknowledgment, moral reckoning, mea culpa, apology, investigation or national discussion about the devastation and atrocities committed during the Korean War. "We went over there and fought the war and eventually burned down every town in North Korea. Over a period of 3 years, we killed off - what - 20% of the population of Korea as direct casualties of war." - General Curtis Lemay, Commander of the US Strategic Air Command 1948-1957

The US destroyed literally every single town. A State Department official in charge of Far Eastern affairs during the Korean War, would admit that the United States bombed “every brick that was standing on top of another, everything that moved.” American pilots, he noted, “were just bombing the heck out of North Korea.” For a point of comparison, the Nazis exterminated 20 percent of Poland’s pre-World War II population and the Khmer Rouge killed ~21% of Cambodia's population during Pol Pots reign of terror.

Western media fails to ever mention this grievance when trying to give a reason for the state of NK's behavior, instead painting a picture of a zany regime that operates without rhyme or reason. For them, it is still the 1950s … and the conflict with South Korea and the United States is still going on. People in the North feel backed into a corner and threatened and have not forgotten the devastation.

That's just one example. I could substitute in the US's use of Agent Orange in Vietnam and Cambodia (who we were not at war with), the 1953 coup in Iran that deposed a democratically elected leader, the 1973 coup in Chile that put Pinochet in power, or the shooting down Iran Air Flight 655.

To be clear, I'm not excusing China's behavior at all. I think it's sad that Americans forget the atrocities it committed. I don't think there can be a peaceful way forward if we are on a high horse, believing that we possess some moral superiority. Although we are correct to criticize the Burmese treatment of their minority Rohingya, the US is still a country that had race riots in the 21st century and a violent Neo Nazi rally in 2017.

P.S.

The US is the unchallenged global leader at hiding messaging behind marketing, propaganda, consumerism and strong arming other countries, and we are ruled by a powerful group of multi-national corporations.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, and our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of…. It is they who pull the wires that control the public mind."

-Edward Bernays (often considered the father of PR), from his seminal work, Propaganda.

Bernays’ publicity campaigns were the stuff of legend. To overcome “sales resistance” to cigarette smoking among women, Bernays staged a demonstration at the 1929 Easter parade, having fashionable young women flaunt their “torches of freedom.”

He promoted Lucky Strikes by convincing women that the forest green hue of the cigarette pack was among the most fashionable of colors. The success of this effort was manifested in innumerable window displays and fashion shows. And yes, he was aware of some of the early studies linking smoking to cancer.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It is not even much fundamentally different from slavery. Yes it is.

How so? What is that large difference? Authoritarian states deal with their people basically as if they were their property. They dispose of their lives at will, they dictate what they think and what they work on, they take their labor at will.

Sorry, I misunderstood your original comment as referring to the the US. However I don’t think that the system in China is like what happened with slavery (it is China you refer to?). People aren’t kidnapped, chained and transported in conditions that kill large numbers. They aren’t traded in degrading markets and are not routinely beaten to death or mutilated by masters. They aren’t branded. As bad as conditions currently are it doesn’t seem like slavery to me.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#213
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not Chinese, but I did live there for a bit. If you haven’t already I suggest you take the time to get acquainted with Chinese culture, modern history, and modern Chinese lifestyle. In recent times there have been significant human tragedies there for sure, but given the historical context they feared to relive, and the incredible gains they’ve made in recent years, you can think of their actions as real large sc…

>the ends justify the means > lots of morally reprehensible stuff that cannot be excused. Which is it?

Unjust or immoral actions can ultimately have on balance positive ends. What you decide to do is a matter of your philosophy, but in most significant cases none of your choices are completely moral.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shock and awe was a brief bombing campaign that hit military and administrative buildings late at night when they were empty. I saw the buildings. They were not apartment blocks. If anyone died in that campaign it was purely by accident.

Go ahead, downvote me. I was there mother fuckers.

It's interesting that you were there, but please don't break the site rules here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shock and awe was a brief bombing campaign that hit military and administrative buildings late at night when they were empty. I saw the buildings. They were not apartment blocks. If anyone died in that campaign it was purely by accident.

Go ahead, downvote me. I was there mother fuckers.

I'm more interested in hearing your story than downvoting you.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#216
post #14

What did they do with all the bodies? "Students linked arms but were mown down including soldiers. APCs then ran over bodies time and time again to make 'pie' and remains collected by bulldozer. Remains incinerated and then hosed down drains.“

The Tank Man (1989) : https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/Tianasquare.j... `An unknown protestor bravely stands in front of a column of armored tanks as an act of defiance against the Chinese government following the Tiananmen Square protests of 1989.` `This photo is one of the most iconic images of the 20th Century and has since been widely used to represent the protests. It was a set of student-led popul…

I grew up with that picture and I still get chills that persist for a full minute when I see it pop up again.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be noted that American schools teach plenty of revisionist history or gloss over the worst excesses. https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/22/opinion/how-texas-teaches... https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/150-years-lat... https://jezebel.com/heres-how-new-texas-public-school-textbo...

not just America. growing up in Canada, exactly 0 minutes were dedicated to discussing treatment of First Nations peoples...noteworthy given that government's exceptionally awful history in that regard

Huh. I went to public school in Ontario between 1987 and 2000 and all I ever learned about first nations people was how shitty they were treated. It was so often the point of our geography and canadian history lessons that I feel like the only thing I know about Canada's history is that they treated first nations poorly. It was so heavily reenforced that a lot of my schoolmates got empathy fatigue.

Where and when did you go to school in Canada?

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a particularly political event so reports from both sides need to be treated with scepticism. So basically, you don't like these facts so we must be skeptical of them? These were not two hostile countries in a war of whataboutism like the US and USSR. China ≠ USSR - this was long after the Sino-Soviet split and by the late 80s the UK and China had good relations. The Sino-British Joint Declaration (which wou…

> So basically, you don't like these facts so we must be skeptical of them? You appear to be uncritically accepting rumours on a leaked cable as a fact - instead I only urge caution on such emotional matters. Were people run over? Were bodies moved by bulldozer? Those statements can be true without that particularly gruesome scene being accurate. It is its gruesomeness that makes me suspect - a property that makes ur…

> At the best of times there is some pretty horrid anti-Chinese xenophobia

No, at the best of times China is discussed as an exciting place where cool tech is happening.

Horrid xenophobia would be the worst of times. Or are you saying HN has something even worse than that for China?

As for people believing exaggerations about the Tiananmen Square Massacre: sorry, not sorry. If China wants there to be a measured and accurate public accounting of that then they can participate in the free and open discussion of that history. As long as they continue to murder or otherwise destroy the life of anyone who discusses it, the consequence is that people are forced to guess what happened. Too bad.

Re: Tiananmen Square 1989 death toll was at least 10,000 according to UK documents

#220
post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I asked my graduate school classmates who were from China and got similar result. Very few of them said they heard of the event after they got to the U.S. and Googled it, but couldn't believe what they read since none of it appears in their life before they left China.

This may be a one-off thing, but I remember playing an online trivial game with some Chinese post-docs. They had no idea who Chung Kai-Shek was! It was almost as if pre-CCP history didn't exist.

He's name in Chinese was 蔣介石 (courtesy name 蔣中正). If they came from mainland China, they would definitely recognize both, since they're in the history book for everyone. The same goes for those 2 names' Pinyin (the Chinese romanization system used by PRC) Jiang Jieshi or Jiang Zhongzheng. Chung's story (along with the civil war between CCP and KMT) is well-known in China and depicted a lot in TV shows and movies.

Chung Kai-Shek is the romanization of 蔣介石 in Cantonese. If those post-docs weren't native in Cantonese, there's almost no way they can connect the pronunciation of Chung Kai-Shek back to 蔣介石.

In another romanization system used by ROC, 蔣介石/蔣中正 is Chiang Chieh-shih/Chiang Chung-cheng. Mainland Chinese can probably recognize them, but no guarantees.

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