Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Abandoned rape kits identify over 800 serial rapists in one Michigan county

freep.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–219 of 219 posts

Re: Abandoned rape kits identify over 800 serial rapists in one Michigan county

#211

Post by falsedan »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #208
falsedan wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we should try it? Teaching daughters to be responsible for not getting sexually assaulyed implicitly communicates that men are not responsible. It can easily be interpreted as victim-blaming. Can you elaborate about how teaching sons not to sexually assault people is disempowering to women? I need help understanding female empowerment.

Teaching daughters to be responsible for not getting sexually assaulted implicitly communicates that men are not responsible. It can easily be interpreted as victim-blaming. That view grows out of our current mental models. Those mental models are the crux of the problem. Protecting yourself from criminal intent in no way absolves the criminal of guilt. We don't draw that conclusion about any other crime. We don't te…

I get that you should be reasonably prepared for calamitous events. I don’t get the disempowering part, nor do I feel like it’s ok to just tell daughters (I know you didn’t say that, but likewise you haven’t addressed how prevention be best discussed with sons rather than avoidance with daughters). Perhaps they are related and I’m unaware of the connection.

I don’t need a complete explanation; I’m happy to get myself educated from an appropriate source.

Re: Abandoned rape kits identify over 800 serial rapists in one Michigan county

#212

Post by chongli »

falsedan wrote: post #198
chongli wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perpetrators of all crimes are mostly men. Sexual assault perpetrated by men isn't out of proportion with theft or murder perpetrated by men.

I feel like your comment was trying to make a point and ended up stating some trivial facts. Could you elaborate on what your point is?

Perhaps it's too nihilistic a point to make at this juncture but it goes like this:

How are we doing at reducing all instances of crime among men? If we can't get people to stop stealing, what hope do we have to convince them not to harass and assault? I just don't buy the standard argument "teach men not to rape". How do we do that? It's not a simple matter of saying "rape is bad, okay?"

What we're dealing with here are tremendous forces of poverty, social atomization, and alienation. People who feel like they are on the outside looking in often have no problem ignoring the rules which really exist only to protect insiders anyway.

Re: Abandoned rape kits identify over 800 serial rapists in one Michigan county

#213

Post by DoreenMichele »

falsedan wrote: post #211
DoreenMichele wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching daughters to be responsible for not getting sexually assaulted implicitly communicates that men are not responsible. It can easily be interpreted as victim-blaming. That view grows out of our current mental models. Those mental models are the crux of the problem. Protecting yourself from criminal intent in no way absolves the criminal of guilt. We don't draw that conclusion about any other crime. We don't te…

I get that you should be reasonably prepared for calamitous events. I don’t get the disempowering part, nor do I feel like it’s ok to just tell daughters (I know you didn’t say that, but likewise you haven’t addressed how prevention be best discussed with sons rather than avoidance with daughters). Perhaps they are related and I’m unaware of the connection. I don’t need a complete explanation; I’m happy to get myself…

There's this:

http://www.girlscouts.org/en/raising-girls/happy-and-healthy...

You might find it useful to google for enthusiastic consent and sex positive resources as well.

But you are the one coming up with this idea that it should be discussed with one gender or the other. I raised my sons this way. My original remarks were aimed at someone with a daughter, but there is no position here on my side to choose only one gender to educate.

I would like this to be a new cultural standard across the board. If you want to stamp out rape culture, then we need a new culture. This includes everyone, not one gender or the other.

The idea that it should be all on men to make sure sex goes well is rooted in current concepts of gender and heterosexual norms that actively train girls to be reactive, not proactive. It is rooted in a patriarchal framing of the world. This framing is inherently incompatible with female empowerment.

What if I want to ask? What then? How does your concept of focusing on men help there?

The other thing is that putting it on men amounts to assuming guilt. This never goes good places. There is a reason the US legal standard starts with an assumption of innocence. Warning men they need to not be rapey bastards begins with this assumption that there is a very big chance that they will do something terrible if they aren't berated from the get go.

What if we treat both men and women like people who likely need to politely negotiate a mutually acceptable arrangement to get their needs met? That negotiation process requires substantive communication about the matter, but it isn't inherently predatory -- unless we make it so culturally, as we currently tend to do.

Re: Abandoned rape kits identify over 800 serial rapists in one Michigan county

#214

Post by falsedan »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #213
falsedan wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get that you should be reasonably prepared for calamitous events. I don’t get the disempowering part, nor do I feel like it’s ok to just tell daughters (I know you didn’t say that, but likewise you haven’t addressed how prevention be best discussed with sons rather than avoidance with daughters). Perhaps they are related and I’m unaware of the connection. I don’t need a complete explanation; I’m happy to get myself…

There's this: http://www.girlscouts.org/en/raising-girls/happy-and-healthy... You might find it useful to google for enthusiastic consent and sex positive resources as well. But you are the one coming up with this idea that it should be discussed with one gender or the other. I raised my sons this way. My original remarks were aimed at someone with a daughter, but there is no position here on my side to choose only o…

> But you are the one coming up with this idea that it should be discussed with one gender or the other.

To be clear: I'm asking you why you're not recommending this be discussed with sons first. I thought it was weird you mentioned educating daughter and didn't mention sons.

> The idea that it should be all on men to make sure sex goes well is rooted in current concepts of gender and heterosexual norms that actively train girls to be reactive, not proactive. It is rooted in a patriarchal framing of the world. This framing is inherently incompatible with female empowerment.

OK, I see. Though I think that you can encourage women to be sexual empowered & and men to avoid sexual assault.

> The other thing is that putting it on men amounts to assuming guilt

I don't understand this in the slightest. It sounds 100% like victim blaming.

> What if we treat both men and women like people who likely need to politely negotiate a mutually acceptable arrangement to get their needs met?

What if I have some advantage over you? Physical, economic, a weapon? There can't be a fair agreement if one side can threaten the other, even if that side is unaware of their advantage.

Re: Abandoned rape kits identify over 800 serial rapists in one Michigan county

#215

Post by falsedan »

chongli wrote: post #212
falsedan wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like your comment was trying to make a point and ended up stating some trivial facts. Could you elaborate on what your point is?

Perhaps it's too nihilistic a point to make at this juncture but it goes like this: How are we doing at reducing all instances of crime among men? If we can't get people to stop stealing, what hope do we have to convince them not to harass and assault? I just don't buy the standard argument "teach men not to rape". How do we do that? It's not a simple matter of saying "rape is bad, okay?" What we're dealing with here…

I appreciate the reply, and I agree with your point.

Re: Abandoned rape kits identify over 800 serial rapists in one Michigan county

#216

Post by DoreenMichele »

falsedan wrote: post #214
DoreenMichele wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's this: http://www.girlscouts.org/en/raising-girls/happy-and-healthy... You might find it useful to google for enthusiastic consent and sex positive resources as well. But you are the one coming up with this idea that it should be discussed with one gender or the other. I raised my sons this way. My original remarks were aimed at someone with a daughter, but there is no position here on my side to choose only o…

> But you are the one coming up with this idea that it should be discussed with one gender or the other. To be clear: I'm asking you why you're not recommending this be discussed with sons first. I thought it was weird you mentioned educating daughter and didn't mention sons. > The idea that it should be all on men to make sure sex goes well is rooted in current concepts of gender and heterosexual norms that actively…

I thought it was weird you mentioned educating daughter and didn't mention sons.

I was speaking to a specific individual about educating their own child. That child happens to be a daughter. That's it. You are entirely fabricating this idea that I was talking about the need to educate girls, but not boys.

My very first sentence is gender neutral:

Teach your child that hugs and kisses require mutual consent.

I only switched to female pronouns after that because I was addressing a specific person who had specified the gender of their own child. That first sentence stands well on its own for speaking to any parent, regardless of the gender of their child. It was intentionally framed that way because the message is gender neutral on purpose.

There can't be a fair agreement if one side can threaten the other, even if that side is unaware of their advantage.

Therein lies your problem. You fundamentally see men as predators and women as prey.

This is an issue that isn't going to be resolved via some internet conversation. I could talk at you until I am blue in the face, you would continue to not understand, continue to accuse me of victim blaming etc.

Most likely, there is no point in investing more of my time in this discussion. There can be no meeting of the minds here.

Re: Abandoned rape kits identify over 800 serial rapists in one Michigan county

#217

Post by falsedan »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #216
falsedan wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you are the one coming up with this idea that it should be discussed with one gender or the other. To be clear: I'm asking you why you're not recommending this be discussed with sons first. I thought it was weird you mentioned educating daughter and didn't mention sons. > The idea that it should be all on men to make sure sex goes well is rooted in current concepts of gender and heterosexual norms that actively…

I thought it was weird you mentioned educating daughter and didn't mention sons. I was speaking to a specific individual about educating their own child. That child happens to be a daughter. That's it. You are entirely fabricating this idea that I was talking about the need to educate girls, but not boys. My very first sentence is gender neutral: Teach your child that hugs and kisses require mutual consent. I only sw…

> You are entirely fabricating this idea that I was talking about the need to educate girls, but not boys.

I would understand your position better if you said, "I would always recommend that we discuss this with sons first, and teach them how their actions enable sexual assault, even indirectly". I think that's not your position though…

Indeed. I fundamentally think that men and women do not have an equal footing in society & that the balance of power is weighted heavily in favour of men. I feel like you want to avoid calling out this unfairness and loudly recommending that men help redress the imbalance by changing their behaviour & calling out disempowering behaviour in others.

I see you are very comfortable in your position; I am new to mine and it's a learning experience.

Re: Abandoned rape kits identify over 800 serial rapists in one Michigan county

#218

Post by DoreenMichele »

falsedan wrote: post #217
DoreenMichele wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was weird you mentioned educating daughter and didn't mention sons. I was speaking to a specific individual about educating their own child. That child happens to be a daughter. That's it. You are entirely fabricating this idea that I was talking about the need to educate girls, but not boys. My very first sentence is gender neutral: Teach your child that hugs and kisses require mutual consent. I only sw…

> You are entirely fabricating this idea that I was talking about the need to educate girls, but not boys. I would understand your position better if you said, "I would always recommend that we discuss this with sons first, and teach them how their actions enable sexual assault, even indirectly". I think that's not your position though… Indeed. I fundamentally think that men and women do not have an equal footing in…

I would understand your position better if you said, "I would always recommend that we discuss this with sons first, and teach them how their actions enable sexual assault, even indirectly". I think that's not your position though…

No, it is not my position.

Children are born innocent. Hanging societal crap on male children for the crime of being born male only perpetuates societal crap. Male children who don't yet even have a sexuality should not be getting the message right out the gate that "We know you are basically a rapey bastard, hell bent on taking advantage of women. So we feel a strong need to inculcate you with brainwashing to the contrary to try to mitigate your inherently evil nature."

Yes, I am aware that men have a lot of money and power in the world that can constitute an unfair advantage. I am doing what I can to redress that. But, among other things, starting with the assumption that boys will always have an advantage perpetuates the problem.

You may never agree with me. Even if you eventually do, that day is probably not coming any time soon. Investing more time in basically arguing with you probably does neither of us any good at all.

I would appreciate it if you just drop this. I don't think this is productive.

Re: Abandoned rape kits identify over 800 serial rapists in one Michigan county

#219

Post by unclepresent »

Falling3 wrote: post #43
unclepresent wrote: post #40

Can any news from Detroit be presented now without giving story a racial twist. I clicked the link expecting get details of what had happened and found a person giving me a moral lecture.

>86% of our victims in these untested kits are people of color. Calling it a "racial twist" sounds completely disingenuous to me. There is obviously a strong racial component here. Why do you think it's a problem to point that out?

There is a strong racial component everywhere. However a grown up person already knows what to expect from mostly black-populated city. White people leave such area for a reason. No one need to explain and give its own ideas about it. We all know what government wants us to hear and we all know what the real truth is. So skip to the point - give the facts and let us make conclusions ourselve.
Post reply on HN