Nineteen people a week overdose in Richmond, dozens are dying, hundreds revived • Hacker News Board

Re: Nineteen people a week overdose in Richmond, dozens are dying, hundreds revived

#211

Post by jfnixon » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 1:56 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #193

gizmo686 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what ways were the Establishment of America, and post WW2 post scarcity? US inflation adjusted per capita GDP is higher today than at either of those times. While I do not think GDP is a great metric, I cannot think of any metric where we, as a society, have less "stuff" to go around then before.

It’s not the amount of stuff, it’s the inequality.

Interesting hypothesis. How does it explain the doctor in the article, or the lawyers, entertainers, and other wealthy people who wind up addicted?

Re: Nineteen people a week overdose in Richmond, dozens are dying, hundreds revived

#212

Post by nickik » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 1:57 PM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #162

This is just so sad. It costs less to prescribe drugs than to diagnose and treat underlying problems. So the American profit-driven medical system relies heavily on drugs, especially for poorer patients. And drug companies love addictive drugs. So we get lots of opiate-addicted patients. And then there's the "drugs are evil" mindset, which justifies criminalization. Even preventing pain is too much like having fun. S…

It has nothing to do with profit driven. The problem is about intensives.

The perverse US health care system with all its regulation has made it so that doctors primary make money by giving away pills.

There were other models where people would basically have subscription to clinics and those would have a intensive to keep you healthy.

The problem is that all alternative models are literally illegal.

Check out this podcast: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2017/06/christy_ford_ch.htm...

They talk about this book: Ensuring America's Health: The Public Creation of the Corporate Health Care System

Re: Nineteen people a week overdose in Richmond, dozens are dying, hundreds revived

#213

Post by nickik » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 1:59 PM UTC

Feniks wrote: post #179

My country had a heroine epidemic in the 80s and early 90s. One of the root causes was a shitty economy and chronic unemployment. All you can do in the end is try to keep things contained. They opened special places were junkies could use their drugs so that they wouldn't have to OD on the streets. You can't fix someone unless they WANT to be fixed.

Many places that did not have bad economies had heroine epidemics in those times as well. Can you actually show statistically that bad overall economy and heroine epidemics are in any way linked?

Re: Nineteen people a week overdose in Richmond, dozens are dying, hundreds revived

#214

Post by saiya-jin » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 1:59 PM UTC

jstarfish wrote: post #96

matwood wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see how people move to something like heroin after being on pain meds and getting addicted, but who really just 'tries' heroin? At this point, the mix danger and addiction danger is well known and publicized. I'm asking, because I cannot mentally put it together, particularly if someone has life going in the right direction.

Chronic pain escalation, sure, but also: kids. I've come to realize that the concept of gateway drugs is bullshit. Kids are going to try whatever they have available. If heroin suddenly enters the scene, then heroin is what they're going to try. Same thing for meth. Also, it's a different sort of high. When you want to get drunk, you drink. When you want to feel stupid, you smoke weed. But when you just want to feel…

> But when you just want to feel like everything is beautiful and nothing is wrong, you try opiates (or amphetamines).

Interesting, this is exactly what weed is giving me, without any nasty effects and addictions of hard drugs. If in nature, this effect is super strong. I came up with most important decisions in my life when high, and they are still solid and best choices possible, even when looking back after 10 years. Different perspective on situations, in some cases really proactive thinking and resolving issues before they arise and so on...

I guess it really affects us differently. I've seen few people get weird/aggressive on it, but then again I would never want to drink with them either. Something badly broken deep inside, with no real chance of fix, ever.

Re: Nineteen people a week overdose in Richmond, dozens are dying, hundreds revived

#215

Post by nickik » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 2:03 PM UTC

ellyagg wrote: post #13

PatientTrades wrote: post #7

Most of this stems from the overprescription of opioids. I remember when I had surgery for a broken leg the amount of drugs I received after the surgery was astounding. It was almost as if the hospital wanted me to become hooked. I didn't need or ask for the opioids, they were just prescribed for pain killing. A regular Tylenol or Advil would have done the job. Not saying hospitals want people on drugs, but at some p…

What makes you say that? It's trivial to get opioids on the streets and it's common to be introduced to them as a recreational drug, as I know first hand. In fact, I don't know anyone who got addicted to opioids due to overprescription, but I know several people who didn't get prescribed opioids they needed because of the fears of overprescription, and thus were left in terrible pain. I don't know how you draw the li…

What makes him say that is that it is a well documented problem. Many other people recognize it and treat it accordingly.

My father is a Anthologist and they are very careful with how much they give. It is a major issue.

For some reason, the US, including doctors, have developed a anti-pain philosophy where they oversubscribe these drugs and it is know to cause addiction.

Re: Nineteen people a week overdose in Richmond, dozens are dying, hundreds revived

#216

Post by dep_b » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 2:27 PM UTC

krisives wrote: post #184

dep_b wrote: post #182

The greatest argument against the death penalty is that it's not applied to the people that deserve it the most. Not only did the pharmaceutical industry earn billions by pushing addictive opioids to people but they also charge people up the nose for the injections they need after they OD'ed because they got addicted. People are still getting filthy rich literally over other people's deaths. In the name of health. I…

Can chose to not use heroin and other drugs - like most of society had informed you - and there is infinite amount of data available to anyone looking.

The addiction initially wasn't fed by illegal opioids with a bad reputation like heroin but by prescribed medication by a trusted authority. Perhaps some people might go directly to heroin now because there's so much of it going around but the initial wave of addicts was created by companies.

Re: Nineteen people a week overdose in Richmond, dozens are dying, hundreds revived

#217

Post by dep_b » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 2:39 PM UTC

nickik wrote: post #210

dep_b wrote: post #182

The greatest argument against the death penalty is that it's not applied to the people that deserve it the most. Not only did the pharmaceutical industry earn billions by pushing addictive opioids to people but they also charge people up the nose for the injections they need after they OD'ed because they got addicted. People are still getting filthy rich literally over other people's deaths. In the name of health. I…

You argument that nobody decides to have cancer is true but it applies to tons of stuff. You don't decide that your car breaks down. You don't decide that a storm is coming. You don't decide the change in import controls for goods from China. There are literally millions of things that you don't decide. The very reason we have capitalism is that we have dynamic system that reacts to feedback and finds or at least mov…

A car analogies, the best ones!

If your car breaks down there are other means of transportation like getting a Uber, renting a car, carpooling, riding a bicycle or even walking. This is the typical "infinite" possibilities situation where capitalism really blossoms. I personally don't own a car because exactly all of those reasons, so I chose to never have a car that I need to repair. I hate things to maintain.

Now imagine a situation where you are only allowed to go to your work in a car, nothing else. If you don't go to your work you will be fired and you will never find another job again (i.e. dead). And the spare part you need for it to get it working again is only available through one source that for some reason charges about 100 times more than it takes to manufacture the part itself. You are not allowed to have any other car than the one you currently own, not even the same one new.

Now that's how having cancer works in the field of choice.

People choose to live near volcanoes, mountains, oceans. Places where tornadoes are frequent. There's a good reason most people on Earth never saw one.

Though I agree somewhat on most of your points. Actually one of the biggest problems is that nor the legal opioids nor heroin are freely available towards consumers. A lot of people are killed because impurities or more unhealthy alternatives. Again, mixing pure capitalism without the real choice makes things really ugly.

But there's a huge incentive to make money not on the best solution for the patient but based on the largest kickback for the doctor and the biggest profit margins for the industry.

Re: Nineteen people a week overdose in Richmond, dozens are dying, hundreds revived

#218

Post by krisives » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 2:41 PM UTC

jrowley wrote: post #207

krisives wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My sister is a heroin addict I've encountered enough =) Also I have lived in Salem, Oregon look up it's statistics. Just because my heart doesn't bleed for people who wouldn't do shit to help you doesn't mean I don't understand the problem.

Fair enough - sounds like we may irreconcilable ethical differences. Maybe I'll get more exposed to the issue and more jaded over time. Thanks for explaining your perspective.

I got up to get something to eat and the restaurant I wanted to eat at couldn't open because a group of heroin addicts outside sleeping on the steps refused to move until they were given food.

That was about 40 minutes ago.

Re: Nineteen people a week overdose in Richmond, dozens are dying, hundreds revived

#219

Post by lostlogin » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 3:06 PM UTC

jfnixon wrote: post #211

lostlogin wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not the amount of stuff, it’s the inequality.

Interesting hypothesis. How does it explain the doctor in the article, or the lawyers, entertainers, and other wealthy people who wind up addicted?

It probably doesn’t and the uptick in the deaths of comparatively advantaged groups doesn’t fit the model well. Addiction and distress have well documented links with things like unemployment rates correlating well with ODs and deaths. However despite wealthy people featuring in the article the vast majority of the deaths, ODs and incarcerations aren’t in the group you describe.

https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/artic...

Re: Nineteen people a week overdose in Richmond, dozens are dying, hundreds revived

#220

Post by mercer » Thu, Nov 09, 2017, 3:56 PM UTC

krisives wrote: post #204

fapjacks wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, now. Are you implying everyone is always making decisions purely intellectually with no other inputs? People make stupid decisions for stupid reasons all the time. In fact most of the time. That doesn't make it any less of a choice.

It's as much of your choice to use a heroin needle as it is to buy an iPhone is my point.

I've been a teenager and I've known a lot of teenagers. I can totes see a teenager get into heroin for all sorts of stupid reasons. Because teenagers are idiots [1].

I prefer a society where a stupid decision at that age can be corrected for at a later time. I prefer it over a society that oversimplifies all this to 'choice', going against so much of what we've learned about human nature over the past decades.

[1]: Adults are also idiots. People are idiots. Rationality is our weapon against it, but it's so effective precisely because we're so irrational by 'default'. I'm baffled how people can still hold a worldview where 'choice' is somehow a simple concept.